Forest Creatures and Gender

[sakyru]

I've been thinking about this for quite a bit considering the nature of the Forest to human transitions and how animals must inhabit male bodies and fairies must inhabit female bodies, and I wonder in the case of female animals becoming male humans - has anyone of them ever identified as being transgender, or any other gender identity besides that?

It seems like it would be a very fluid way to explore the concept of gender, to have your soul be relocated into a body of a different sex - really seperates the notion of gender being the sex that you physically have.

Thoughts?

[hypixion]

I guess it's the same as with humans however this comic doesn't explore this subject so it won't come up.

[freeman]

Oct 20, 2015 16:05:04 GMT sakyru said:

I've been thinking about this for quite a bit considering the nature of the Forest to human transitions and how animals must inhabit male bodies and fairies must inhabit female bodies, and I wonder in the case of female animals becoming male humans - has anyone of them ever identified as being transgender, or any other gender identity besides that?

It seems like it would be a very fluid way to explore the concept of gender, to have your soul be relocated into a body of the opposite sex - really seperates the notion of gender being the sex that you physically have.

Thoughts?

I'd see it like that too: changing the gender would be a minor thing comparable to changing species and entering into the modern human world?

Assuming transgenderism usually has biological causes, and furtherly assuming the court grown human bodies have normal biology (with normal variation of course), I'd like to think that the forest originating previously female animal human boys (reverse-trans-humans?) will eventually figure it out and go the usual way. "The nature will guide a woodpecker into the tree." Or what do I know, maybe Foley is packed with unhappy and confused students who don't feel they belong into their current gender...

(Emphasis added. A transgender flamewar has been smoldering around this topic, I don't want to be the one to ignite it.)

[imaginaryfriend]

Oct 20, 2015 19:35:00 GMT freeman said:

Assuming transgenderism usually has biological causes, and furtherly assuming the court grown human bodies have normal biology (with normal variation of course), I'd like to think that the forest originating previously female animal human boys (reverse-trans-humans?) will eventually figure it out and go the usual way. "The nature will guide a woodpecker into the tree."

Is agree. It would seem that in the Gunnerverse this issue is another "mind is plaything of body" one. Is it time yet to generate a secret code for that phrase and in so doing announce our existence as a fully-evolved internet subculture?

I think it's more interesting that the Woods apparently doesn't care if candidates keep their gender.  They'll have to compete for mates with everyone else and take their chances; if they're better at display and pre-mating ritual than the natives (which depends on how fully they surrender to instinct) or if they're stronger (they can beat up/kill the rivals) they'll have the chance to reproduce. If not, too bad so sad.

The Court wants to maintain a balanced population but doesn't care if it (the physical area of the Court) goes mostly unpeopled. It wouldn't shock me to learn that they tinker with the bodies the candidates receive to manage the small dating pool and if so, they probably go statistically heavy on the low-percentage options to make sure that nobody they can't genetically alter (in other words, an IMPORTANT person) gets left out in a given generation (and therefore has a motive to look elsewhere than the Court for acceptance/love which would strip the Court of a resource).

[speedwell]

I think a lot of the controversy revolves around our subconscious (and totally justified) feeling that the Court acts arbitrarily and without regard for the feelings of its members. But this gender-division-along-species-lines seems altogether too arbitrary and contrived. Yes, assuming all of the fairies are fully female before becoming human and want to remain so... but, you know, this is a huge assumption. For most of human history, religious and secular, among rich and poor, the sexes were defined in terms of each other; that is, without a corresponding male, there was really no substantive meaning to being female, and vice versa. The idea of "gender identity" is comparatively new, and is based on comparatively modern cultural ideas and definitions of what it is to be a man or a woman*. We've seen already that Forest culture is startlingly non-human, moreover, so the fairies may not identify as "female" the same way that human women do. And the animals, who presumably start at an adult stage of development, when they are considered competent to make such momentous decisions, may well see becoming a male human as a comparatively small matter in the context of transitioning to human prepubescence. I may be so bold as to theorize that an animal's wish to become human is in a few ways analogous to a woman in a male-dominated culture wishing to become male in order to obtain masculine privilege and power. This raises the question of why the fairies wouldn't have the same wish, and it may have something to do with the fact that they have enhanced etheric powers, but I think I'm going a bit off the mark anyway.

And are we sure that humans who transition to Forest creatures automatically retain their gender identity as animals? (For that matter, I haven't seen it confirmed that any humans ever become "elves", or fairies, either.)

The Court may be rather ham-handed in many ways when it comes to individuals (and to be sure the Forest is no particular respecter of individuality), but the way they work this might have been the best available solution to a complicated problem we readers haven't seen explicated yet. One thing we do know about the ether is that it has rules. Do we know that the Court actually had the option to do things differently? Anyway, unless the situation becomes relevant to the plot, we probably won't see the original problem discussed in detail, either; Tom is too good a storyteller to go running down blind alleys just to settle reader arguments.

*I hasten to assure everyone that I don't discount it for its newness; gender identity as distinct from assigned sex at birth is definitely an objectively demonstrable thing in the context of our culture and other cultures where the distinction is socially meaningful, and has been proven to have a biological basis, or rather a complex of biological bases (no assumptions on that particular score necessary, freeman).

[snipertom]

DO NOT FEAR NON TRANSGENDEREDS I COME IN PEACE AND ALSO DO NOT SEEK TO START ANY...


TRANS GENDERED FLAME WARS


Anyway in regards to the comic and gender I can see at least a couple of different options:

• Female animals -> Male humans causes gender issues: it's either portrayed in the comic because it's an issue, or it's not because no major characters are FtMimals
• Something aetheric or otherwise 'realigns' the mind with the body, gender-wise post 'transition'

I do find the choice to portray forest <-> court transition in such a way quite interesting for a number of reasons.

Firstly in that you can clearly see a metaphor between sex transition and transition to and from human - however I'm not sure whether this is intentional or just a parallel that can be drawn

Is the court more coded as 'masculine' with the whole science/tech vs magic business? Is that why the animals are or become male as humans?

This however doesn't explain fairies and their femaleness. I haven't seen a single male fairy yet. Are fairies intrinsically female? Are they so female that even going to the court can't un-female them?

The former-rabbit alluded to the sex change being a minor issue considering that being human would allow her (him) to do loads of other things. This itself is also interesting given how much importance human society places on gender and sex - the first thing a parent asks/is told about a newborn child.

To invert the metaphor however, for a lot/most of trans people, living as the birth sex is shitty and limiting; going through the awkwardness and difficulty and stigma of medical/social/surgical/legal sex transition is 'minor' compared to the importance of being able to be oneself without limitation.

Trans people a couple of generations back were so stigmatised that the psychiatric advice to them apparently was to basically move and assume a new identity in their new sex role (eg in the 50s). IN particular even now trans women (MtF) are often highly stigmatised. Can we see the transition of 'court/male' to 'forest/female' as being such a break that requires assumption of an entirely new identity- thus the amnesia of the previous life?

I don't know! I guess only Tom really knows! Some things that one writes have intentional deeper meanings, sometimes there are other meanings that are either subconscious or actually not intended at all but 'can be interpreted in such a manner'. I don't know whether Tom would necessarily have intended for the relationship of the court to the forest (and their inhabitants) to be seen through that lens, but it's interesting to play the thought experiment, especially given that the matter of sex change when going from animal to human was brought up explicitly.

I really honestly don't mind how Tom chooses to address or not address this issue. He's shown that he can address difficult and complex stuff pretty much excellently so I trust that if he does explore things further it will be done well. But if it turns out that 'magic fixes everything' I'm also totally cool because after all 1) this is a fantasy universe and 2) there are only so many topics one can cover.

If that makes sense?

[speedwell]

Oct 21, 2015 5:03:44 GMT snipertom said:

If that makes sense?

yeah, totally, magic is inherently transgressive! and you raise some really good points here as well, especially the one about how all the trouble and expense is worth it if at the end you become "more truly yourself".

[Daedalus]

When I saw this thread title, I braced myself for a flame war.

I'm astonished (in a good way) with the civility y'all have handled the topic with

My opinion's already been summed up to some degree by speedwell and snipertom - it's likely that the Court has reasons, and possibly the process wouldn't work any other way. Considering how open the Court has proven around issues like same-sex romance, I can't believe anyone there would have trouble with Foley kids transitioning genders, if that's what they chose.

Honestly, I'm guessing that the whole issue wouldn't be a big deal at the Court. Gods, spirits, strong AI, and etheric beings are seen as no big deal there. Why would it raise eyebrows analogous facial structures if someone wanted to embrace a gender different than the sex they were born with?

Which, I would venture to say, is how society in our universe should be. Why should anyone not accept how someone else defines themself?

SPOILER: Click to show

snipertom: Ironically, considering the topic, my user tagging wasn't working because I totally forgot that "snipertom" wasn't your original username here, haha.

[west]

The explanation that I was most comfortable with is just that the forest animals don't value the concept of gender as a component of personal identity the way humans do. It's touchy to speculate on the brainpower and mentalities that the forest animals start with (the closest reference point that comes to mind is Alistair turning into a bird, with a bird brain "and all that implies"), but perhaps back when our new friend here was still a hare, she didn't so much think of herself as A Lady Hare so much as A Hare Who Is A Bit Bigger Than Half The Other Hares And Might Get Pregnant Someday Who Knows. If that's the case, then this whole new Guy thing would just be one of those parts of human social behaviour that he's picking up on. By extension, perhaps the fairies were solidly female before the change, so having their sex altered as part of the change wouldn't be acceptable to them.
At least, I hope. The alternative would be that the animals do have firm gender identities that are being either disregarded or altered by the process, which would be pretty distasteful in my book. If it's something that's no big deal to the animals, then the fact that the gender ratio is being enforced basically for bureaucratic purposes (near as I can tell) is just humourously absurd.

[lordofpotatoes]

Oct 20, 2015 19:35:00 GMT freeman said:

Oct 20, 2015 16:05:04 GMT sakyru said:

I've been thinking about this for quite a bit considering the nature of the Forest to human transitions and how animals must inhabit male bodies and fairies must inhabit female bodies, and I wonder in the case of female animals becoming male humans - has anyone of them ever identified as being transgender, or any other gender identity besides that?

It seems like it would be a very fluid way to explore the concept of gender, to have your soul be relocated into a body of the opposite sex - really seperates the notion of gender being the sex that you physically have.

Thoughts?

I'd see it like that too: changing the gender would be a minor thing comparable to changing species and entering into the modern human world?

Assuming transgenderism usually has biological causes, and furtherly assuming the court grown human bodies have normal biology (with normal variation of course), I'd like to think that the forest originating previously female animal human boys (reverse-trans-humans?) will eventually figure it out and go the usual way. "The nature will guide a woodpecker into the tree." Or what do I know, maybe Foley is packed with unhappy and confused students who don't feel they belong into their current gender...

(Emphasis added. A transgender flamewar has been smoldering around this topic, I don't want to be the one to ignite it.)

GREEETINGS CIS PEOPLE



Let's get the first thing out of the way, I am trans, if none of you noticed I switched the gender icon this year on this forum. Maybe I'm not active enough for people to remember me, but maybe you do.

Secondly, I agree with this post. There are two theories on why people are trans, either it's biological and was either determined before you were born or because of how you developed as time went on(food? toxins? etc.) OR it's psychological and could be because of how you were raised, the culture you're from, etc etc.

However, in BOTH cases the court could do something about it. If it's biological they would simply build a body that fits what they want. So they chose animals to be all male and all fairies to be all female because they wanted an even gender ratio and all fairies were already female. So they just chose all animals to be male because they were lazy. If it's psychological, then by extension, it could theoretically be fixed neuropsychologically. So really, psychology is just a niche type of biology that we examine without surgical tools(unless you're a neuropsychologuist). So the court could still change that.

I don't think gave this 50/50 thing much thought, but he went with it, not until afterwards would he realize the problems with it. But they can easily be fixed with explanations like ours. Just pick an explanation from this thread and make Tom a happy man. = D

[justcurious]

I have friends who are trans. They say they have always felt a discomfort with their bodies.
What I have seen strongly suggests that transsexuality is a neurological form of inter-sex. There are on average differences between the brains of the sexes and transsexuals have brains which are in some respects more like those of the the opposite sex to that of their body. As I understand it it's probably partially genetics but mostly in-utero hormone exposure.
But if the court can provide a blank human body for the mind and soul of the animal or fairy the brain will probably match the body hence have the right brain-body map for the body along with the other inbuilt gendered psychological traits. Thus I would not expect sexual dysphoria. As as others have said the difference between the sexes is dwarfed by that between the species yet we see no sign of the new humans having the sort of discomfort with their bodies that a trans person has.

[imaginaryfriend]

Oct 21, 2015 1:17:36 GMT speedwell said:

And are we sure that humans who transition to Forest creatures automatically retain their gender identity as animals? (For that matter, I haven't seen it confirmed that any humans ever become "elves", or fairies, either.)

I don't believe it's been specifically answered though I believe Ally was referred to as "he" after he changed so I'm thinking keeping the same gender is the default setting. It has been formsprung that test candidates can choose what sort of animal they want to be, perhaps that extends to gender but that would have been up to Ysengrin, I guess. I surmise from the formspring answers that it was as a result of Gen. Ys's mediumship that [human --> animal] candidates were all sent into the lower ranks on the food chain. Some became talking animals, some didn't. Not all of those latter group stay sentient. An average person probably couldn't become an elf at all and dragon was expressly forbidden. There was one saying something to the effect that if Antimony wanted to cross over that a special arrangement could be made for her to become a female vixen, though...

Oct 21, 2015 1:17:36 GMT speedwell said:

The Court may be rather ham-handed in many ways when it comes to individuals (and to be sure the Forest is no particular respecter of individuality), but the way they work this might have been the best available solution to a complicated problem we readers haven't seen explicated yet.

and

Oct 21, 2015 8:46:04 GMT west said:

If it's something that's no big deal to the animals, then the fact that the gender ratio is being enforced basically for bureaucratic purposes (near as I can tell) is just humourously absurd.

There was one formspring answer that things neither fairy nor animal are assessed on a case-by-case basis for gender assignment. Perhaps there are technical issues specific to what species go to which human genders but I'm inclined to believe the Court's actions/motives flow mostly from technocracy. For an institution that aims at becoming god(s), that puts "little things" in food to track people and thoroughly surveils those who work on secret projects, the notion of getting "smart" people in charge of bureaucracies to micromanage problems like gender-ratio and identity in the manufacture of new bodies would seem to naturally follow. Their motives don't have to be megalomania or evil, either. It's for everyone's own good, after all, and "the good of the people is the highest law." Cicero

Perhaps the reason the Court is so empty is emptiness was a consequence of how some problems were solved?

Oct 21, 2015 8:46:04 GMT west said:

The explanation that I was most comfortable with is just that the forest animals don't value the concept of gender as a component of personal identity the way humans do. It's touchy to speculate on the brainpower and mentalities that the forest animals start with (the closest reference point that comes to mind is Alistair turning into a bird, with a bird brain "and all that implies"), but perhaps back when our new friend here was still a hare, she didn't so much think of herself as A Lady Hare so much as A Hare Who Is A Bit Bigger Than Half The Other Hares And Might Get Pregnant Someday Who Knows. If that's the case, then this whole new Guy thing would just be one of those parts of human social behaviour that he's picking up on. By extension, perhaps the fairies were solidly female before the change, so having their sex altered as part of the change wouldn't be acceptable to them.

It is an interesting problem but possibly not insurmountable. Rabbit was asked if she knew about this and said she didn't care (thought she might have been as ill-informed as Ally in some of the details). The intelligent nonhumans like the faeries probably have a form of socially-constructed gender identity from interaction with other species even if within their own species they're like Tribbles. Beyond that, there's instinct and biology so there's three bases for the animals in GC.

Also: The main thing needed to take the test is a desire not present in animals, so even non-intelligent animals can in theory take the test though I'd guess that gender identity or orientation might not be enough on its own to qualify for candidacy.

[lordofpotatoes]

Oct 21, 2015 13:37:27 GMT justcurious said:

I have friends who are trans. They say they have always felt a discomfort with their bodies.
What I have seen strongly suggests that transsexuality is a neurological form of inter-sex. There are on average differences between the brains of the sexes and transsexuals have brains which are in some respects more like those of the the opposite sex to that of their body. As I understand it it's probably partially genetics but mostly in-utero hormone exposure.
But if the court can provide a blank human body for the mind and soul of the animal or fairy the brain will probably match the body hence have the right brain-body map for the body along with the other inbuilt gendered psychological traits. Thus I would not expect sexual dysphoria. As as others have said the difference between the sexes is dwarfed by that between the species yet we see no sign of the new humans having the sort of discomfort with their bodies that a trans person has.

Intersexed brains seem to be the most probable theory from what we know, the brain is handling all the chemicals(after all it is but one big chemical process that nurtures our bodies) and when it is receiving imbalance in what it expects(hormones) it creates the feelings of dysphoria. I'm would like to see this theory explored, but I think it is very probable and the explanation you provided seem to be fit for this time and age. In the future we might have a better understanding, but this is not the future.

[Daedalus]

Oct 21, 2015 19:53:37 GMT lordofpotatoes said:

but this is not the future.

In fact, today is the one day where I can say that you're strictly wrong. Today...is the future!

[lordofpotatoes]

Oct 21, 2015 20:23:51 GMT Daedalus said:

Oct 21, 2015 19:53:37 GMT lordofpotatoes said:

but this is not the future.

In fact, today is the one day where I can say that you're strictly wrong. Today...is the future!

Yeah I was thinking of seeing the movies today, wrote that unintentionally so I deserve this.

[sakyru]

Oct 21, 2015 1:17:36 GMT speedwell said:

I think a lot of the controversy revolves around our subconscious (and totally justified) feeling that the Court acts arbitrarily and without regard for the feelings of its members. But this gender-division-along-species-lines seems altogether too arbitrary and contrived. Yes, assuming all of the fairies are fully female before becoming human and want to remain so... but, you know, this is a huge assumption. For most of human history, religious and secular, among rich and poor, the sexes were defined in terms of each other; that is, without a corresponding male, there was really no substantive meaning to being female, and vice versa. The idea of "gender identity" is comparatively new, and is based on comparatively modern cultural ideas and definitions of what it is to be a man or a woman*. We've seen already that Forest culture is startlingly non-human, moreover, so the fairies may not identify as "female" the same way that human women do. And the animals, who presumably start at an adult stage of development, when they are considered competent to make such momentous decisions, may well see becoming a male human as a comparatively small matter in the context of transitioning to human prepubescence. I may be so bold as to theorize that an animal's wish to become human is in a few ways analogous to a woman in a male-dominated culture wishing to become male in order to obtain masculine privilege and power. This raises the question of why the fairies wouldn't have the same wish, and it may have something to do with the fact that they have enhanced etheric powers, but I think I'm going a bit off the mark anyway.

And are we sure that humans who transition to Forest creatures automatically retain their gender identity as animals? (For that matter, I haven't seen it confirmed that any humans ever become "elves", or fairies, either.)

The Court may be rather ham-handed in many ways when it comes to individuals (and to be sure the Forest is no particular respecter of individuality), but the way they work this might have been the best available solution to a complicated problem we readers haven't seen explicated yet. One thing we do know about the ether is that it has rules. Do we know that the Court actually had the option to do things differently? Anyway, unless the situation becomes relevant to the plot, we probably won't see the original problem discussed in detail, either; Tom is too good a storyteller to go running down blind alleys just to settle reader arguments.

*I hasten to assure everyone that I don't discount it for its newness; gender identity as distinct from assigned sex at birth is definitely an objectively demonstrable thing in the context of our culture and other cultures where the distinction is socially meaningful, and has been proven to have a biological basis, or rather a complex of biological bases (no assumptions on that particular score necessary, freeman).

Thanks for your input! I think the topic of gender in the context of the Forest should definitely be considered different from gender in the human world. That's a very interesting thing to consider, and might even render my original question invalid, which is fine by me because then it makes things all the more interesting.

That, and how you mentioned that we don't know if the Court has any other way to facilitate the transitions - the etherical forces are still a mystifying thing, so it's definitely entirely possible that there's no other way to go about it, if we assume the Court isn't just trying to maintain a 'balance' because of reproductive purposes, or any other sort of purpose.

Oct 21, 2015 5:03:44 GMT snipertom said:

If that makes sense?

This is a great post and definitely makes a lot of sense! Thank you for your input!

I'm pretty happy with all the discussion in this thread too, it's a joy to read through and everyone has managed to explore very interesting angles about how the issue could be problematic, non-problematic, and questions about Court morality once again. I think I personally am leaning more to the idea that Forest creatures simply don't percieve gender in the same ways humans do and therefore nothing very conclusive can be drawn about this topic with the information we have on hand - Rabbit is only one individual and their word is hardly enough to presume all Forest creatures feel the same way, even if it does provide some insight.

[aline]

Oct 21, 2015 5:03:44 GMT snipertom said:

Firstly in that you can clearly see a metaphor between sex transition and transition to and from human - however I'm not sure whether this is intentional or just a parallel that can be drawn

That's a quite interesting idea.
Not long ago I was reading an interview about a Star Trek episode portraying a tabu relationship between two aliens and all the related emotional tragedy. However, this tabu was an alien tabu that us 21st century humans would have difficulty relating with out of the blue. So in order to help the viewers relate, the writers also made the relationship a homosexual one.
Now, in 24th century Star Trek, homosexuality is a complete non-issue, and not once was the word "homosexuality" even mentioned in the episode, as it never preoccupied any of the characters in any way. However, the subtext was there. All the stigma and history of discrimination towards homosexual was associated with this alien tabu this couple was breaking in order to be together. It was a brillant way to help viewers relate with something that could have otherwise felt very foreign.

In the same way, the sex change might indeed be there to help us unnderstand the massive transition that those creatures are going through. I would also be very interested to learn whether this was intentional.

Oct 21, 2015 5:03:44 GMT snipertom said:

This however doesn't explain fairies and their femaleness. I haven't seen a single male fairy yet. Are fairies intrinsically female? Are they so female that even going to the court can't un-female them?

Coyote hinted earlier that the fairies are how they are because the Court want them like that www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1472. It seems that, unlike other creatures, it's less a choice than a part of their destiny to come to the Court and become humans. I'm sure this is a thread that the story will pick up later on. Until then, we are left to speculate... could they be Court-engineered too? And if yes, why send them to the forest?

[judgedeadd]

Oct 20, 2015 16:20:08 GMT hypixion said:

I guess it's the same as with humans however this comic doesn't explore this subject so it won't come up.

Since the comic has already explored lesbian/gay themes I don't find it unlikely that it won't begin exploring transgenderism themes as well.

[warrl]

There isn't an obvious vehicle for such an exploration. I wouldn't consider a character who is dealing with a change of species and a dramatic size change, as well as a sex change, to be a prime candidate for the role.

Even El Goonish Shive had to introduce a new character to be such a vehicle, in spite of the fact that the 8 main characters all have been male at one time or another and also all have been female at one time or another.

[Druplesnubb]

I think starting with the question of "do the they experience gender dysphoria" is ignoring the fact that the gender change is relatively minor compared to all the other things they go through. Their bodies change dramatically, their psyche gets changed to that of ahuman brain, they'll have to learn how to walk on two legs and speak human languages. Many of them have never had to interact socially with another being before. Some will be bound to the earth after a life of swimming or flying. Most will have a completely new diet. They'll likely also change sexual orientation so they're attracted to humans instead of cows or whatever. Any gender dysphoria they'd experience would just be a part of a much bigger whole.

[stevecharb]

I don't think Bunny had much of a gender identity to begin with.  Much of gender is a sociocultural concept of humans. Other animals would probably have very different thoughts on the sexes and gender, especially with animals that exhibit very little sexual dimorphism-- which includes rabbits.

I absolutely don't want to detract from trans people in any way, but at this point I don't see any reason to think Bunny is gender dysphoric. After all, when asked her thoughts on the gender change, Bunny responded (via Snuffle-Fairy) "I don't care".

(which actually leaves open the possibility, if I'm wrong about minimally sexually dimorphic animals and gender identity, that Bunny identified as male to begin with)

[Dvandaemon]

Guys I don't think transgendered is a word.

Keep in mind, along with the newness of gender identity, gender assignment also existed long before any scientific investigation into the matter, so any arguments regarding neurology and the like are mired in confirmation bias. Afaic gender and sex are separate things, animals only change sex when transitioning to human and fairies are kind of unknown to me. The gender identities that exist within the binary are eurocentric/western and complementary and can't really exist without each other. There is this whole body of discourse about biologists categorizing animals within the gender binary when they're practically incomparable to how we perceive them. Following that, animals may not have a gender identity, fairies may or may not but theirs being female is dubious if there are no males (though that might be justified by them being defined by humans, so the only reason they're an entire race of females is because they're conceived and perceived by a (single community in a) race with cultural perceptions of a gender binary).

I think I'm getting off-track, basically, animals may not have a gender binary and maybe a part of their transition as a species is classes socializing them to the concept of human gender identities. I'd imagine it's like a gender and sexualities class that covers worldwide cultures since the court seems pretty globalised in scope. It's likely they don't care about changing sex because that's not really something their invested in as animals(outside of mating and even then homosexuality is more common than people realize), but like humans, after transitioning, they may realize or determine for themselves they do not identify with their gender assignment and transition or eschew the binary altogether in some other genderqueer or non-binary gender. For prey species transitioning to human seems largely pragmatic, same with fairies if there's a pecking order in etheric beings (which given Ys' "help" towards red and blue seems likely).

To summarize, under the premise that their gender identity is non-existent and is only assigned after transitioning species, animals and fairies like humans could determine their identity past their assignment much like any born human might. Gender identity existing before that to animals is highly dubious to me. With fairies it really seems more like a human aesthetic imposed on them because the perceived gender seems to have no practical social impact to them.

[speedwell]

"Transgendered" is a word; it's just not considered the correct word anymore; it's been deprecated in favor of the adjective "transgender". This is because "transgendered" sounds ridiculous. We don't call the sociological field of Gender Studies "Gendered Studies", and we don't refer to gender differences among people as "gendered differences". "Transgendered" was seen as a veiled, even unconscious, way of referring to something I can best call "transgendering", as if it was a process applied to someone and not a permanent attribute of that person. Where the implication is that someone is deliberately referred to using language appropriate to a gender that they do not identify as, the correct word is "misgendering" (not "transgendering"), and the speaker is said to have "misgendered" them. Ridiculous and deprecated words are still words, though; we don't (for very good reasons) refer to "Coloreds" anymore, for example, though we acknowledge the word exists.

As far as historical gender roles in various cultures, I might have raised a few eyebrows when I said that in the past among many cultures, particularly Western ones, especially among the non-ruling classes, the distinction was only considered important in light of (literally) the "engendering" (=begetting) of children. A similar cultural attitude may exist in the sexually-egalitarian wolf packs, for example, or among mice, or cats, or other animals (rabbits?) where the sexes (note I did not use the word "genders") are very alike in size, appearance, and abilities. Obviously other animals with extreme sexual dimorphism could be theorized, assuming they were capable of grasping the situation and articulating their views, to have more trouble with the idea. You'd expect a gorilla, accustomed to a particularly wide size dimorphism, to have more trouble with the idea than the average wolf, to be sure. Can you imagine the reaction of a female animal from a species with dimorphism like Lindsey's and Bud's to being told she would have to become a male?

Having given the matter some thought, I really do think that the Court's justification is even more simple, lazy, and high-handed than "all the fairies look female so all the animals have to look male". After all, we all seem to be assuming that equal numbers of fairies and animals want to become humans, and that need not be the case. No, I think the Court simply has a vested interest in preventing ex-fairies from associating (having families) only with ex-fairies and ex-animals only with ex-animals, in other words in forcing everyone to assimilate as humans. On the whole, they would anticipate that an ex-fairy would expect to have any possible future children with a male human or an ex-animal, and vice versa for an ex-animal.

[Dvandaemon]

Well, you know, ludicrous, deprecated and outdated is what I meant but I didn't want to be too aggressive about it. I was mostly speaking from the experience of transgendered being derided by trans people in response to arguments attempting to justify misgendering under linguistic pretenses. It's not a viable or appropriate word, is what I should have said.

[warrl]

Oct 27, 2015 10:07:34 GMT speedwell said:

"Transgendered" is a word; it's just not considered the correct word anymore; it's been deprecated in favor of the adjective "transgender". This is because "transgendered" sounds ridiculous. We don't call the sociological field of Gender Studies "Gendered Studies", and we don't refer to gender differences among people as "gendered differences". "Transgendered" was seen as a veiled, even unconscious, way of referring to something I can best call "transgendering", as if it was a process applied to someone and not a permanent attribute of that person.

I read a couple webcomics (and am aware of another that I don't recommend and a fourth I won't even name let alone link to because it's seriously offensive) with transgendered characters - the thing is, they are FICTION and use MAGIC to transgender those characters.

In real life, being transgender is neither an event that happens to someone nor a process that is done to them. It's just the way they are and have been for their entire life. (Well, I suppose that hypothetically a brain injury might change someone's gender, but I've never heard of it happening - albeit, I've never looked for a record of such an event. It certainly isn't a common way to get transgender people.)

[Dvandaemon]

At the risk of prolonging this tangent I don't think transgender as a verb is appropriate there either, unless the magic altered their minds or they identified with their new gender identities. I think a better word would be transition, as in the physical change. I don't think it's appropriate to suggest brain damage as a potential cause of realising a trans identity, it kind of frames it like a symptom or pathology.

I'm not very confident in continuing this line of discussion tbh.

[warrl]

Oct 29, 2015 4:55:39 GMT Dvandaemon said:

At the risk of prolonging this tangent I don't think transgender as a verb is appropriate there either, unless the magic altered their minds

In one case, the entire change was mental/spiritual - no physical change.

or they identified with their new gender identities. I think a better word would be transition, as in the physical change.

What do you call it when a cisgender character is, involuntarily, sex-changed and NOT gender-changed? You now have a person whose physical sex and gender are in conflict. I'd say that person is transgender.

(And I can't think of a single instance of such a person in a webcomic being freaked out to the extent I would expect of a person with a strong gender identity, based on my limited experience with born-transgender people.)

I don't think it's appropriate to suggest brain damage as a potential cause of realising a trans identity

I suggested it as possibly (but rarely, if it happens at all) causing a *change* of gender identity. Not a realization of something that had been there all along. And if there isn't already some level of both male and female genders, I don't think it could cause the person to be transgender. Agender, yeah, but not trans.

[Dvandaemon]

I'm not sure, because from the way it's framed cisgender is being fine or otherwise uncritically satisfied with your gender assignment from birth, trans is identifying otherwise. If you're cis and involuntarily sex changed, you're transitioned and you have body dysphoria but you're not trans. You still identify with the gender you were assigned at birth and you don't identify as transgender.

Dysphoria isn't the be all and end all to being transgender. Non-binary and intersex people can experience dysphoria. My friend is demisexual and she experiences dysphoria as well. Some transgender people don't link their sex with their gender and don't really experience dysphoria or discomfort with themselves at all. Not every trans person' journey is an ordeal of coping with dysphoria.

[speedwell]

Oct 30, 2015 6:52:16 GMT Dvandaemon said:

I'm not sure, because from the way it's framed cisgender is being fine or otherwise uncritically satisfied with your gender assignment from birth, trans is identifying otherwise. If you're cis and involuntarily sex changed, you're transitioned and you have body dysphoria but you're not trans. You still identify with the gender you were assigned at birth and you don't identify as transgender.

Dysphoria isn't the be all and end all to being transgender. Non-binary and intersex people can experience dysphoria. My friend is demisexual and she experiences dysphoria as well. Some transgender people don't link their sex with their gender and don't really experience dysphoria or discomfort with themselves at all. Not every trans person' journey is an ordeal of coping with dysphoria.

As a middle-aged woman who has been friends with many transgender people (possible TMI: a childhood friend to whom I was once engaged to is a transgender woman; one of my best friends where I used to live, until she passed away, was a transgender... um... hooker... but a really good friend, honestly; I used to hang out with a really bohemian crowd), I quite agree that trans /= dysphoria. As an uncomplicated, baseline hetero, cis woman, I am secure enough to admit to the very few, very rare times I've thought, "geesh, she's lovely, I wouldn't kick her out of bed", and the not-especially-rare times I've wondered, as a woman in engineering, whether things wouldn't have been a lot easier for me if I had had the right, um, tool kit in my pocket. But that's just what everyone feels from time to time; dysphoria is quite different.

As for being involuntarily assigned the other sex, how would I feel? Annoyed. Massively annoyed. How huge a violation of bodily autonomy is that? I would feel like I'd been drugged and given a hysterectomy. Would I give up my femaleness to take on a new body that I felt was superior in every way? You damn betcha, that's voluntary, full stop.

[warrl]

We're arguing definitions of where one cloud ends and another begins... and after thinking a while about what I want to say after acknowledging that, I think I'll just stop there.