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Post by imaginaryfriend on Sept 23, 2015 12:24:51 GMT
I would have agreed with that until today's comic. Now I wonder. Coyote is no liar ... except by omission, and exaggeration, and misdirection. With all the omitted parentheticals included: " Broken Man. I could eat you up, and no one (living (who matters (to me))) (that I'm aware of) would be sad for it (right now). Nobody but my (repeatedly threatened) (periodically abused) friend (for the moment) Fire Head Girl. And I care for her happiness (sometimes) because she makes ME happy (for now) (and I'll drop her like a mic the very nanosecond she stops doing so)." Notice that Coyote has, in fact, completely ignored the entirely reasonable question posed to him about "how can Antimony ever be safe around you?". Instead, Coyote has immediately resorted to a mix of crude intimidation ("I could murder you at will, you know") and false implications of omniscience ("Absolutely no one else anywhere anywhen would ever mourn you, if I murdered you now") and creepy amoral self-absorption ("I won't murder you (now) because that would make her sad, and I care (for now) about her not being sad, because she can (for now) make me happy."). Like, literally the only motive he offers for not randomly murdering someone standing in his way of getting what he wants in his toddler tantrum is that if he did so it would obviously backfire on him. Not exactly a persuasive response to the question that Coyote was posed. Rather the polar opposite of a persuasive response, in fact. While true that the words of Coyote must be parsed carefully they don't happen in a vacuum. That is also Coyote who is saying he smelled all of Anthony. What *all* means is unclear but it apparently has some bearing on the statement "I could eat you up and nobody would be sad for it. Nobody but Fire Head Girl[.]" I agree that Coyote is amoral and self-absorbed but that doesn't mean he operates on his own universe of facts. What he's saying may mean that *Anthony* does not believe Donald would mourn if Anthony died. Coyote would have no reason to doubt that and even if Donald regretted Anthony's death he may not be terribly emotionally attached to Anthony and wouldn't be very distressed about it. Maybe it just means that Coyote can smell depression on Anthony and does not smell any other person's scent. It might also mean that Coyote has some hyperposition in the story setting that gives him (if not omniscience) insight into Anthony's emotional distance from other people in general, and Coyote is referring to that. I don't think it's an effort at intimidation because that would backfire as surely as violence against Anthony; it's just Coyote stating the facts as he knows them. His goal is the return of his relationship with Antimony and bullying her beloved douche dad in front of her would achieve the opposite of that.
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QuotePilgrim
Full Member
Behind my door, there are twelve other doors.
Posts: 142
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Post by QuotePilgrim on Sept 23, 2015 13:45:56 GMT
Oh well, I believe Coyote believes what he said, but I think he’s just wrong. I am pretty convinced Donny would be sad.
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Post by OrzBrain on Sept 23, 2015 14:17:23 GMT
Damn, but this page is very, VERY hallucinogenic. The entire self being inhaled by an entity, then the mandala of the self in the center, the multiple yet one interrogators at every side all speaking at once. Trippy, man.
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Post by storyteller on Sept 23, 2015 14:41:35 GMT
I both agree and disagree. Yes, it's very easy to forget that Coyote, as a powerful etheric being, doesn't "play fair." While he always tells the truth, those who aren't already privy to the truth might find themselves misled. But that doesn't mean that Coyote is willfully deceptive. I'd say that the purpose to Jones' warning is, "If you don't know the truth, be careful about trusting Coyote's account." I'm having a hard time coming up with examples to illustrate the difference between "intentionally obscuring the truth" and "speaking the truth in a way that seems to imply something that is false." I guess it's sort of like the Oracle at Delphi. "There will be a great victory." Sounds pretty cool, huh? Better do that. I hear there's a great victory to be had...and then you're routed, it's a total stomp, and you realize that you never considered that it's not your victory. But it's not that the Oracle was trying to lie. The Oracle was simply speaking the truth. Instead, it's kind of your fault, for blindly trusting in your first interpretation of the words that she said. Many people would say that she lied, or omitted the truth, but I disagree. Why would she? The Oracle was not invested in the outcome of the battle. Instead, the blame lies with the general. A little bit of caution and a lot more critical thought could have illuminated the REAL reason the Oracle stated things the way she did: the battle was momentous, and it was important not to charge in expecting victory but instead to ensure that the whole thing went in his favor. In my experience, the only reason for stating things while true, with the intention that the interpretation will be incorrect is to lie. With the Oracle at Delphi, she did have a very good reason to lie. Even if she did think that the general would lose she wasn't going to tell him that when he could chop her head off. People do not like it when they are told they shall fail. "Intentionally obscure the truth" and "speaking the truth in a way that seems to imply something is false" describe the same thing, due to being long winded synonyms of the same thing: lying.
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Post by Rasselas on Sept 23, 2015 14:59:28 GMT
It's really interesting why he didn't include Anthony's friends among those who care. I am certain that Donald and Anja care, but they are just very angry with him at the moment. I wonder if Coyote's sniffing tracks etheric links he has with others, in a way that he perceives the emotions linking them. He just decided to interpret Donald's and Anja's anger his own way.
However, Annie-without-flame is the one who cares for and excuses her dad. Annie-the-flame is also furious with him.
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Post by keef on Sept 23, 2015 15:03:38 GMT
Beautiful page again. Well, Donny would be sad I guess. I would have agreed with that until today's comic. Now I wonder. It may sound cheesy, but Donald may mourn Tony's life more than his death. (yep that looks cheesy) If Coyote's nose tells him Broken Man has no friends left, then that's it. It's a divine nose. About the ever popular subject of Coyote not lying: he is a god, he doesn't need to lie. And there is even the possibility (or risk) that what he says becomes true, because it is the word of God. In the Gunnerverse (as in Discworld) stories tend to become true, so why not a story (lie) told by a god.
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QuotePilgrim
Full Member
Behind my door, there are twelve other doors.
Posts: 142
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Post by QuotePilgrim on Sept 23, 2015 15:04:10 GMT
In my experience, the only reason for stating things while true, with the intention that the interpretation will be incorrect is to lie. With the Oracle at Delphi, she did have a very good reason to lie. Even if she did think that the general would lose she wasn't going to tell him that when he could chop her head off. People do not like it when they are told they shall fail. "Intentionally obscure the truth" and "speaking the truth in a way that seems to imply something is false" describe the same thing, due to being long winded synonyms of the same thing: lying. That depends on how you define “lying”. I define it as “saying things which aren’t true”. In this case, if one’s statements are all true, even if crafted in such a way to intentionally make someone believe in something that’s not true, then they are, by (my) definition, not lying. “Deceiving” defines better what they are doing. The Oracle was not lying, but she certainly was intentionally deceiving the general.
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Post by jda on Sept 23, 2015 15:05:52 GMT
"I could eat you up and nobody would be sad for it" On the contrary. There would be much rejoicing on the forum. Damn good recall, I appreciate it as one of my fondest memories.
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Post by hp on Sept 23, 2015 15:22:45 GMT
Ooooh that "he understood" got me curious. Could he be meaning more than "he noticed Tony is Annie's father"?
For a moment I found that quote even more interesting, because I initially had read it as "all of the MEN".
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Post by Eisenblume on Sept 23, 2015 16:03:00 GMT
Jesus Christ Tony. You're not living an easy life, are ya?
Am I the only one to cut him some slack after we got to know what it's all about? Like, I'm pretty much with Donny here, he's not forgiven but he is as he is because of reasons. Like, I pity him I suppose.
I find Coyote much more disturbing. Messing with people's brains and what not. Tony does what he does because he believes it is the only way he can fix things, Coyote acts as he does because it amuses him to feel powerful.
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Sadie
Full Member
I eat food and sleep in a horizontal position.
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Post by Sadie on Sept 23, 2015 16:07:05 GMT
About the ever popular subject of Coyote not lying: he is a god, he doesn't need to lie. And there is even the possibility (or risk) that what he says becomes true, because it is the word of God. In the Gunnerverse (as in Discworld) stories tend to become true, so why not a story (lie) told by a god. That's a really good point. The Truth in the Gunnerverse regularly sits on the dividing line between what's true because it exists in literal physical reality, and what's true because people believe it to be true -- which can cause it to become literal physical reality either because of their actions or because of the ether. Those truths/physical realities can then co-exist, even though they should logically contradict or cancel each other out. Which is how it goes in the real world, too, except without the etheric aspect. Anthony doesn't believe anyone does or SHOULD miss him and sure enough, he treats others in ways that they find alienating and off-putting and encourages them to wish he'd just go away. Though whether Coyote is commenting on the truth Anthony believes and therefore creates, or from his own limited awareness of the people in Anthony's life that care about him regardless, is up for debate. Probably both, because Coyote's a jerk like that.
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Post by albeon on Sept 23, 2015 16:32:05 GMT
People tend to leave a trace on those they interact with. If he is going by smell alone, and given how Tony avoids direct contact with pretty much everyone. It would be reasonable to assume Coyote got the idea because Tony smells like the only one who spends any time around him is Annie.
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Post by linkzeldi on Sept 23, 2015 16:32:45 GMT
Who wants to bet the court is just pitting Tony and Coyote against each other, hoping they'll each take the other out.
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Post by Daedalus on Sept 23, 2015 16:35:58 GMT
I wonder how comprehensive that "ALL" is in "smelled ALL of him". I wonder how having your soul sniffed would feel. Probably kind of tingly?Who wants to bet the court is just pitting Tony and Coyote against each other, hoping they'll each take the other out. I doubt that the entire Court could take out Coyote, if he was actually applying all of his power. I very much doubt a single man could, who couldn't even build an etheric antenna without help. Unless that's the purpose of this secretive "Omega Project"... I'll always love you and make you happy If you will only say the same But if you leave me to love another, You'll regret it all one day*Coyote dance number* That seems a little more like Diego's shtick than Coyote's, honestly. And to me, he's far more evil than Coyote will ever be. The latter may be self-absorbed, childish, and occasionally violent and sociopathic, but he's never been malevolent. As opposed to Diego, whose response to being friendzoned is murder most foul.
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Post by linkzeldi on Sept 23, 2015 16:42:38 GMT
Coyote is probably the kind of chaotic neutral where their goals aren't restricted by neither good nor evil, but instead only center around themselves. Coyote can harm or hurt equally, but in the end every action he takes seems to benefit himself (if only for his own amusement). Tricksters by nature are supposed to make you question binary systems like good and evil, (Ysengrim himself says he both loves and hates coyote, which are two polar opposites).
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Post by Sky Schemer on Sept 23, 2015 17:10:25 GMT
You know, after reviewing the past couple of chapters, and studying the several chapters that involve Tony and Surma's back story, and the beginnings of the Court, I am forced to conclude that...I have no idea what's going on. Or why. Or who thinks any of this is working to anyone's advantage.
Could it all be as simple as someone's attempt to steer events gone awry?
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Post by ctso74 on Sept 23, 2015 17:30:59 GMT
I wonder how comprehensive that "ALL" is in "smelled ALL of him". I wonder how having your soul sniffed would feel. I'm guessing, it would depend on social aspects when doing it. It could range from transcendent to kinky... though I imagine, too much eye contact would push it into creepy. Forbid a wink. Shudder.
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Post by TBeholder on Sept 23, 2015 18:18:54 GMT
Well... that's one way to put it. People tend to leave a trace on those they interact with. If he is going by smell alone, and given how Tony avoids direct contact with pretty much everyone. It would be reasonable to assume Coyote got the idea because Tony smells like the only one who spends any time around him is Annie. And if he smells more than normal canines the same way he sees more than mortals?..
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2015 20:02:03 GMT
The Oracle was not lying, but she certainly was intentionally deceiving the general. The lord to whom the Oracle at Delphoi belongs does not explain nor encrypt, but rather alludes. According to a different philosopher, the whole Apollinian logos must be dreamily deceitful in nature because it shrouds humans from the truth that, at the moment of their conception into a defined shape, they were separated from the greatest bliss. The Oracle did not tell Croesus anything new to him. His overconfidence led him to deceive himself into thinking that it had: because he could not accept a sense of uncertainty before the battle, he made his defeat a certainty instead. This becomes evident to the reader, and possibly Cyrus as well, when the Persian king spares him the pyre, according to Plutarch's narrative. The same source reports that he cried for Solon at last in despair, rather than for Aesop and his asinine fables. (He might still have been missing that man's point, though.)
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Post by speedwell on Sept 23, 2015 21:24:31 GMT
I wonder how comprehensive that "ALL" is in "smelled ALL of him". I wonder how having your soul sniffed would feel. Probably a bit like a session with the wonderful therapist I had the year before last (she was so good I literally "graduated" from therapy!). I suspect Coyote would be a great therapist if, erm, he had an ounce of compassion.
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Post by warrl on Sept 23, 2015 22:23:49 GMT
"Intentionally obscure the truth" and "speaking the truth in a way that seems to imply something is false" describe the same thing, due to being long winded synonyms of the same thing: lying. Take one gallon of red paint and add one drop of blue paint. Mix thoroughly. Paint a wall with it. The wall will look quite red. "The wall is painted a mixture of red and blue" - true but obscure. It contains no clue about *how much* of each color, or even whether the wall has some red areas and some blue areas versus being a single color that is a mixture of red and blue. "There is blue paint on the wall" - true but misleading. Anyone hearing this will be looking for a wall painted blue. Anyone looking at the wall will think it is red.
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Post by ctso74 on Sept 23, 2015 23:37:27 GMT
A thought just occurred to me, and I don't recall if anyone else has brought it up exactly. "Meetings and Re-Meetings" could literally mean "This meeting and this meeting retold". That would explain the style of the chapter, versus the style of the chapter's thumbnail. "Meetings" is the first half told from Coyote's point of view(current style), and "Re-Meetings" will be the second half retold from everyone else's POV(normal style). If this is the case, I eagerly await Coyote sniffing the crap out of Tony, in front of the assembled Court. Hopefully, Mr. Snorty McCap will be there.
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Post by matoyak on Sept 24, 2015 0:09:07 GMT
Jesus Christ Tony. You're not living an easy life, are ya? Am I the only one to cut him some slack after we got to know what it's all about? Like, I'm pretty much with Donny here, he's not forgiven but he is as he is because of reasons. Like, I pity him I suppose. I find Coyote much more disturbing. Messing with people's brains and what not. Tony does what he does because he believes it is the only way he can fix things, Coyote acts as he does because it amuses him to feel powerful. Depends on what you mean by cut him some slack. If you mean merely pity, then yes. I pity him and the situation he is in. Do I give him slack for that situation when it is mostly his fault? Eh. The thing about Coyote is that he's entirely the way he is because that is entirely WHAT he is. Trickster Gods are not human, they are the embodiment of Essence de Trickster, and all that entails. Humans are creatures that build who and what they are on top of their core born attributes, as opposed to being entirely made up of and ruled by those core things. It is much more of a Thing to hold a human accountable to their actions than to demand a God of <Doing X> stop doing x.
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Post by Trillium on Sept 24, 2015 1:59:16 GMT
A thought just occurred to me, and I don't recall if anyone else has brought it up exactly. "Meetings and Re-Meetings" could literally mean "This meeting and this meeting retold". That would explain the style of the chapter, versus the style of the chapter's thumbnail. "Meetings" is the first half told from Coyote's point of view(current style), and "Re-Meetings" will be the second half retold from everyone else's POV(normal style). If this is the case, I eagerly await Coyote sniffing the crap out of Tony, in front of the assembled Court. Hopefully, Mr. Snorty McCap will be there. I have been expecting the story to shift to another POV and style especially as the chapter icon is in Tom's normal style of drawing. Till then I am going enjoying the great style that this chapter is unspooling in. It is pretty cool story telling.
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Post by gunnerwf on Sept 24, 2015 2:23:36 GMT
I'm not 100% sure that Annie should go into the forest at this time, with her emotional state she could pretty easily be manipulated by coyote right now.
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Post by Trillium on Sept 24, 2015 2:39:32 GMT
I'm not 100% sure that Annie should go into the forest at this time, with her emotional state she could pretty easily be manipulated by coyote right now. Since Annie cut off the direct connection to her Fire Elemental she isn't Fire Head Girl so, no she should not go into the forest right now. Coyote wouldn't want her in this condition anyway. Anthony (at the Courts request) is the reason this has happened so he's getting the brunt of Coyote's personal attention.
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corvis
Junior Member
"I like this place and could gladly waste my time in it."
Posts: 56
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Post by corvis on Sept 24, 2015 2:45:13 GMT
This chapter, more than any others, shows how well you actually do grasp Coyote as a character, CoyoteReborn. Good jobber on that. (No, our mystery user is even smarter than that. Not only does he understand him, but he's left his characterization so open ended that, in the event that Coyote does something that radically alters our idea of him and his motives, his online persona can be tweaked imperceptibly to encompass it. Genius.) Forgive my moment of insanity, your All-Powerful Lordship. Side effect of your awesome presence. Heh.
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corvis
Junior Member
"I like this place and could gladly waste my time in it."
Posts: 56
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Post by corvis on Sept 24, 2015 3:12:53 GMT
I'm not 100% sure that Annie should go into the forest at this time, with her emotional state she could pretty easily be manipulated by coyote right now. Since Annie cut off the direct connection to her Fire Elemental she isn't Fire Head Girl so, no she should not go into the forest right now. Coyote wouldn't want her in this condition anyway. Anthony (at the Courts request) is the reason this has happened so he's getting the brunt of Coyote's personal attention. The request of "the Lords of the Court" that Annie be allowed to go back the forest is interesting, because: They seemed to exercise abundant influence over Anthony in his account last chapter. Why does he suddenly disregard their opinions now? Possibly because they didn't make the request. I think Coyote believes that the people we've seen so far (the Headmaster, Jones, Eglamore, as pictured by Coyote) are not so much the ones in charge, but on the same level as the ones who are. He doesn't differentiate between the many facets of the Court; he sees the people overseeing each part as all having the same knowledge and the same goals, which are of no interest to him. We, however, know that the true Lords of the Court have little to do with the school setting we've seen so far. They are shadowy and inaccessible, and not quick to back down, especially not from a being who can barely be said to exist. The school faculty are afraid, and willing to concede to Coyote's demands (Annie is their student, after all), but the court as Tom (and Tony) know it? Definitely not. Either that, or I have entirely misconstrued the purpose of the Court's school. I thought it was to keep those kids away from the rest of the world.
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Post by Daedalus on Sept 24, 2015 3:40:13 GMT
This chapter, more than any others, shows how well you actually do grasp Coyote as a character, CoyoteReborn. Good jobber on that. (No, our mystery user is even smarter than that. Not only does he understand him, but he's left his characterization so open ended that, in the event that Coyote does something that radically alters our idea of him and his motives, his online persona can be tweaked imperceptibly to encompass it. Genius.) I dunno about open-ended. S/He's actually gone pretty far onto a limb by expanding Coyote to be not entirely in control of his actions (see various recent posts) and sort of rewriting him as a sympathetic fellow with, you know, feelings (even before this most recent chapter happened). Which is impressive, considering how two-dimensional he was before this most recent chapter. And if that interpretation turns out to be explicitly contradicted, s/he will be in some trouble - since, of course, Coyote never lies. Which itself causes a problem, because if our mystery roleplayer gets ANYTHING explicitly wrong about the future, s/he's gone out of character. Vagary isn't just part of the character himself; it's also an important aspect to roleplaying a fairly omniscient fictional character. That being said. Let's have a direct test, shall we? S/he seems to show up when summoned, so... (draws pentacle with blood and crayons) CoyoteReborn! I humbly request your august presence to give us a glimpse of the future of the comic!
Reveal to us Tom's plans! Enlighten us on your role in the conclusion! Show us your final blaze of glory!
Or are you too much of a domestic dog to dare commit yourself? (sticks out tongue) In exchange for an answer, I shall give one (1) immortal soul, lightly used. Is this bargain to your satisfaction?
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Post by CoyoteReborn on Sept 24, 2015 8:15:29 GMT
Or are you too much of a domestic dog to dare commit yourself? *growls threateningly*(draws pentacle in blood and crayons) CoyoteReborn! I humbly request your august presence to give us a glimpse of the future of the comic!
Reveal to us Tom's plans! Enlighten us on your role in the conclusion! Show us your final blaze of glory!
I deign to be merciful, mortal! Also, you have insulted my ego, for which you will pay dearly. But first!... here is your final page, as requested! I kid, I kid! That's obviously not the ending, because I'm not in it!
But here's my real answer...*smirks*
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