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Post by tootsiren on Aug 23, 2015 17:46:54 GMT
Honestly, I think most of the malice toward Tony is more telling about the haters than the hated. A lot of it seems to stem from the idea that being a father means forfeiting every other aspect of your humanity and dedicating yourself solely to the parenting of your child. That Tony's abandonment of his daughter is a mortal sin, and that the only way he can compensate for it is to be present and nurturing at all times, like a gardener tending a delicate flower. Ok, so where did I infer or say straight out that a good parent must be present 100% of the time? I actually wasn't responding to you in particular. I hadn't even read your post. Hello. |
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Post by antiyonder on Aug 23, 2015 19:51:12 GMT
Ok, so where did I infer or say straight out that a good parent must be present 100% of the time? I actually wasn't responding to you in particular. I hadn't even read your post. Hello. It's really your wording that got me. "Honestly, I think most of the malice toward Tony is more telling about the haters than the hated." Basically you're making assumptions about anyone who critiques or hates Tony when some of us never said anything close to "he should be 100% present". But that's why you should clarify that your statement isn't meant to be an absolute. Because by default you're basically making assumptions about me. Now if you want to paint me or Tony critics as being wrong, perhaps you'd care to respond to my earlier posts here indepth. I will admit that I tend to give more slack towards the child in situations like this and for what I believe to be good reason. Namely who gets to choose whether a child is conceived or born? Parents. You can legitimately fault a child for their actual mistakes and punish them in a well proportioned fashion, but the fact they exist is on the parents who chose to throw caution to the wind and do the deed. And with certain surgical operations, child procreation on your part can be avoided together. Now, again there is a time and place for even good parents to be selfish and true, even the relatively best parents won't be prepared from the getgo, but one mindset that I see some of the problematic parents lacking is that "A child is not like a literal baby doll. They have emotions and needs that can't be disregarded willy nilly.". So yeah, in short, I think the reason some parents fail is because they are in the mindset of two kids who play house and tend to think of their yet to be born child as a stuffed doll who can be put down at any time. But then whether it's simply wanting some down time or the days of boarding school, surely it's reasonable to expect parents to leave contact info for the child whether it's for themselves, or other family members or friends. |
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Post by Rasselas on Aug 23, 2015 22:22:30 GMT
My point was intended to add some perspective. Especially in Britain, boarding schools are culturally and historically an accepted feature. Children as young as 5 were sent off to boarding school. That is why stories like Harry Potter or Gunnerkrigg feature them, because they're an accepted cultural reality. It should put somewhat in perspective what Tony has done. Parents would send off their children to school even without a huge tragedy in the family to spur it on.
Now, personally, I recoil at the thought of sending away such a small child. To me, the practice has always seemed so distant and unloving. I just wanted to give some perspective, since this was not such an unusual thing for parents to do. Look at James' story, he was once sent off to the Court with his parents obviously sad about it. And yes, there's the matter of Tony not picking up Annie for the summer holidays, and completely falling out of contact without even informing her where he was. These are good reasons to judge him.
On sending Annie to the Court, both Anthony and Surma would have known the Donlans would take an interest in their daughter. It wasn't a happy accident, it was not arranged either, but it was something to be expected.
I wish we could discuss these subjects without setting up camps across trenches. I don't consider myself a member of any affiliation club, for Tony or against, I think that's a completely silly divide. The truth is usually more complex, rather than black or white. In this comic especially so, that's why it's so awesome.
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Post by antiyonder on Aug 23, 2015 22:42:35 GMT
On sending Annie to the Court, both Anthony and Surma would have known the Donlans would take an interest in their daughter. It wasn't a happy accident, it was not arranged either, but it was something to be expected. Maybe, but I still think getting her acquainted with the two and maybe even approaching them to ask if they would take custody of Annie might have helped both in the long run, and especially lessening Annie's fear of abandonment (such as when she ran from Kat after seeing her with Paz). |
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Post by antiyonder on Aug 23, 2015 23:18:12 GMT
Tony trusts the Donlans enough to know they would take care of Annie All well and good, but looking at past chapters like: 1. Chapter 32 - From the Forest She Came- Went a little too overboard in trying to make amends to Kat. 2. Chapter 45 - Thread: Seeing Kat in a relationship with Paz [prompted her to think that Kat will leave her some day, and rather than waiting in their room to talk about this fear, she runs off. Which obviously is a product of someone fearing abandonment, and I feel that if she were to have been introduced to the Donlans, she would at least not fear the possibility at all or at least not so strongly. Maybe, but if he felt he couldn't be a regular part of his daughter's life or be available at times, he should have really made sure that Annie wouldn't be lacking in a place to turn to in case she needed emotional support and at least try to locate the Donlans. I don't know, I mean I'd think that when it comes down to a child's well being, leaving it to fate isn't enough. I'd want to be damn well sure they'd be covered in health, finance and moral support. Former two Tony certainly did, but the latter third, failed. |
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Post by antiyonder on Aug 24, 2015 0:56:34 GMT
Looking back at what we know of his personality and the events I don't think he planned anything for moral support. I'm curious to know what Surma thought was going to happen: she knew Tony loved his daughter but she also probably knew he was...terrible at being a dad/and or Emotions? 1. Hard to say. If there was true love between them, Surma obviously like Donald experiences a rarely seen side to Tony and expected that to carry over to the child they had together. 2. One reason I've seen speculated as to why she was drawn to him is that while he isn't known for regularly forming friendships and the like, he tends to hold the few relationships formed fairly seriously and under-estimated how much her passing would affect him, especially since he at least knew that having a child would result in her death. |
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Post by Daedalus on Aug 24, 2015 7:22:38 GMT
Moving this spin on events here: I'm not seeing a contradiction between the guilt and the cruelty. Guilt is a horrible feeling and it's tempting to make it go away any way you can. One very intuitive way to do that is to find a reason why your victim is less deserving. I'm not saying he actually thinks she deserves it for cheating, but it's a natural instinct to lash out at the source of ones pain, even if the pain is guilt. It's paradoxical, but humans are weird like that. And he does still resent her for taking Surma away, that is clear. He wouldn't choose to kill her, but he still resents her for "squandering" the gift of life. He may at some level expect her to be grateful to him for choosing not to sacrifice her, and resent her for making him care enough not to. All of these motives are very ugly and very human. And I'd believe all of it of him. |
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Post by antiyonder on Aug 24, 2015 7:40:06 GMT
While I question how far he'd blame Annie if at all, I think it's hard to dismiss the notion entirely simply because Surma had to reassure her that he still loves her.
Not really any reason to say such a thing unless you believe there is a shred of resentment.
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dd500
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Post by dd500 on Aug 24, 2015 7:52:07 GMT
You left out the option "I think Tony is a pretty rad guy."
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Post by zimmyzims on Aug 24, 2015 13:58:44 GMT
This honestly should have an "Other" option, though I think you have covered most of the bases well. Anyone browsing threads in the last several months should know my opinion as well, as I've been rather vocal. That poll covers zero positive bases. It ranges from absolute negative to a sort of "okay.... if it must" level acceptance. I guess that's why the sarcasm alert. |
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Post by zimmyzims on Aug 24, 2015 14:02:03 GMT
While I question how far he'd blame Annie if at all, I think it's hard to dismiss the notion entirely simply because Surma had to reassure her that he still loves her. Not really any reason to say such a thing unless you believe there is a shred of resentment. You cannot deduce Anthony's feelings from whatever Surma said and believed. |
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Post by Trillium on Aug 24, 2015 18:56:27 GMT
My point was intended to add some perspective. Especially in Britain, boarding schools are culturally and historically an accepted feature. Children as young as 5 were sent off to boarding school. That is why stories like Harry Potter or Gunnerkrigg feature them, because they're an accepted cultural reality. It should put somewhat in perspective what Tony has done. Parents would send off their children to school even without a huge tragedy in the family to spur it on. Now, personally, I recoil at the thought of sending away such a small child. To me, the practice has always seemed so distant and unloving. I just wanted to give some perspective, since this was not such an unusual thing for parents to do. Look at James' story, he was once sent off to the Court with his parents obviously sad about it. And yes, there's the matter of Tony not picking up Annie for the summer holidays, and completely falling out of contact without even informing her where he was. These are good reasons to judge him. On sending Annie to the Court, both Anthony and Surma would have known the Donlans would take an interest in their daughter. It wasn't a happy accident, it was not arranged either, but it was something to be expected. I wish we could discuss these subjects without setting up camps across trenches. I don't consider myself a member of any affiliation club, for Tony or against, I think that's a completely silly divide. The truth is usually more complex, rather than black or white. In this comic especially so, that's why it's so awesome. In Ch. 2, Schoolyard Myths, pg. 26 Antimony tells Kat that her mom wanted her to continue her education at Gunnerkrigg Court. We don't know what Anthony wanted. Since both Surma and Anthony went there Annie would be a legacy student. Though we don't know what other schools exist in the Gunnerverse what regular school would be prepared to handle a human/fire elemental hybrid during her teen years? It is a logical choice. We still don't know a lot and we are finding out bits and pieces here and there. It does make the story intriguing and leaves us with gaps that we can speculate about and assumptions we can fall into. This story is full of assumption traps. Surma may have hoped the Donlans would take Annie under their wing but neither she nor Tony contacted either of them. The first time Anja finds out about the death of her friend and Annie's iminate arrival is the transfer letter she gets as a school administrator (flashback we see in Ch. 18, S1). The Donlans do not swoop into action. Anja gives her daughter a nudge of a suggestion and they leave things to work out for themselves. They are there and approachable but they are very low key and only step in occasionally; blinker stone lessons and the Reynard intervention being two examples. We are just going to watch and see where the story takes us. |
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Post by antiyonder on Aug 24, 2015 20:26:31 GMT
Right now it seems to me that Tony thinks his biggest mistakes have been the failure to save his wife and a deal with weirdos faes who feed on blood and possibly hallucinogenic mushrooms, when his main life problem has been his inability to connect with people and his need to do everything by himself. Annie learnt it was toxic and led to a miserable life, so I have hope for Tony. Ironically I think the mistake that eclipses all other mistakes is his own perception on.... Mistakes. Namely he seems to think that mistakes are a sign that one is a total failure rather than thinking of them as a learning experience to improve from his flaws. |
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Post by The Anarch on Aug 25, 2015 5:17:44 GMT
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Post by antiyonder on Aug 25, 2015 5:36:07 GMT
Overall as of Page 1557, there's still room for the upcoming pages to prove otherwise, but his manner of demanding Annie to remove her make up while unprofessional seems explainable in that he doesn't want to be reminded of Surma by much.
Blowing off concern over his hand sadly is close to fact (though the speculation isn't one I came up with but agree on).
Even the fact that his first words to her are of scolding and disappointment makes sense on the basis that he doesn't see himself as anything other than her teacher.
Plus all of the above seems to be estimated by others to be Tony feeling that Annie hates him already or he feels she should hate him, thus wants to purposely anger her.
Only thing I still think is unexplainable is that he didn't see fit to inform her that she has to repeat a year until after a class she isn't suppose to be at.
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Post by pxc on Aug 25, 2015 17:36:26 GMT
Overall as of Page 1557, there's still room for the upcoming pages to prove otherwise, but his manner of demanding Annie to remove her make up while unprofessional seems explainable in that he doesn't want to be reminded of Surma by much. Blowing off concern over his hand sadly is close to fact (though the speculation isn't one I came up with but agree on). Even the fact that his first words to her are of scolding and disappointment makes sense on the basis that he doesn't see himself as anything other than her teacher. Plus all of the above seems to be estimated by others to be Tony feeling that Annie hates him already or he feels she should hate him, thus wants to purposely anger her. Only thing I still think is unexplainable is that he didn't see fit to inform her that she has to repeat a year until after a class she isn't suppose to be at. By "explainable" I assume you mean "from his warped perspective". |
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Post by antiyonder on Aug 25, 2015 18:24:25 GMT
Overall as of Page 1557, there's still room for the upcoming pages to prove otherwise, but his manner of demanding Annie to remove her make up while unprofessional seems explainable in that he doesn't want to be reminded of Surma by much. Blowing off concern over his hand sadly is close to fact (though the speculation isn't one I came up with but agree on). Even the fact that his first words to her are of scolding and disappointment makes sense on the basis that he doesn't see himself as anything other than her teacher. Plus all of the above seems to be estimated by others to be Tony feeling that Annie hates him already or he feels she should hate him, thus wants to purposely anger her. Only thing I still think is unexplainable is that he didn't see fit to inform her that she has to repeat a year until after a class she isn't suppose to be at. By "explainable" I assume you mean "from his warped perspective". Yep. Compared to when we first read his return, it feels like there's less to question about those scenes. |
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Post by csj on Aug 26, 2015 6:06:22 GMT
He is almost Shakespearean in his tragic, self-destructive nature. The concept of a tragic hero stems from Ancient Greek theatre. Fair enough tho. |
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Post by Nepycros on Aug 26, 2015 12:41:44 GMT
I'm gonna need to add more options soon.
I'll wait until we get the last pieces of the puzzle, which will hopefully be by Friday.
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Post by Daedalus on Aug 26, 2015 12:46:17 GMT
With the new information in today's page, some opinions must change, no? I mentioned in another thread that I'm not entirely content with this interpretation of Tony's character. But given what we know now, AND ASSUMING TONY IS BEING ENTIRELY TRUTHFUL... Oh, poor, poor Tony. I wonder if he's crying in the present day as well. The Court proves to be a major antagonist, after having been out of focus for so long. ...However, Tony was still a dick about how he went about all of this, though. At the very least, I would have expected some kind of validation to Annie, to try to prevent her from feeling shattered entirely. Or perhaps a different approach that was less detrimental to her emotional health. Or at least finding a way to tell her he was being coerced into doing all of this? He's a smart man, he could have figured something out. That was his duty as a father. That being said, I'm not sure if the Court would even have to prompt that level of dickery (we'll see in the next page, though). Regardless of his reasons, he's always been a bad father (e.g. not contacting her before going on his magic hippie vision quest; not sending any messages that he wouldn't be picking her up for the summer; etc) as an extension of his just-generally-bad social skills. ...and the makeup comment was still way out of line, and isn't part of his Court-given mandate to "rein Annie in". However, I think that one stemmed from his grief and anger at seeing Annie looking like Surma, and (as I and other speculated before) was sharper than his other comments because he had a more personal reason to make it. With all of this in mind, I'm moving from "I can understand his motives, but it's still unforgiveable." to "He's not a good father, but he is driven." The things that have been done to harm Annie's mental state are still unforgiveable. But now, with today's update, those burdens rest upon the Court's shoulders, not Tony's. Instead, the worst Tony has done is to be an irresponsible father in general in trying to "atone" for his self-perceived sins and failures. |
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Post by ih8pkmn on Aug 26, 2015 13:08:14 GMT
I'm honestly really torn about this. On the one hand, we're finally getting some motivation that kind of explains why Tony is acting this way... but on the other, none of it is excusing why he's being abusive towards Antimony. If he can act this way towards his best friend, why does he act like a complete and utter prickass towards his daughter? I imagine the Court is making him do it to some extent (constant surveillance and all), but surely he could take Antimony into his own home and have a talk with her. I don't think even Sheldon Cooper is this socially inept. (If you'll excuse me, I'm going to have to give myself fifty lashes for comparing anyone to Sheldon Cooper.)
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Post by pxc on Aug 26, 2015 14:37:16 GMT
I don't see that a lot has changed. We already know he's not the cartoony villain twirling his mustaches and enjoying delicious daughter tears. Many people predicted the Court forced him to come back.
If anything, this shows that if he'd had his way he wouldn't have returned to her. And regardless of his bullshit self-hate reasoning for it, continued abandonment wasn't and isn't a good solution.
The Court being manipulative asshats doesn't absolve Tony of much, if anything. Annie did need to be reined in. But once again even when Tony did the right things he did them the wrong way. He's been through hell, and that sucks for him. But a lot of it, really all of it, was the result of his bad choices. He's a complex character that dug himself into a hole. He can dig his way out though. If he accepts help and faces reality.
I understand the concerns that "The Court made me do it" could tie everything up too neatly. But I don't think that is what is happening here. Not Tom's style at all.
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Post by eyemyself on Aug 26, 2015 15:14:41 GMT
He is almost Shakespearean in his tragic, self-destructive nature. The concept of a tragic hero stems from Ancient Greek theatre. Fair enough tho. Very true, and I suspect the Greeks probably borrowed it from older literary traditions still. I think my brain went Shakespeare because Tony's story reminds me particularly of King Lear, and to a lesser extent Titus. He is so gods be damned convinced he is doing the right thing even as her is making terrible, terrible mistakes that deeply harm himself and those he loves most. |
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Post by matoyak on Aug 26, 2015 16:03:47 GMT
I don't see that a lot has changed. We already know he's not the cartoony villain twirling his mustaches and enjoying delicious daughter tears. Many people predicted the Court forced him to come back. If anything, this shows that if he'd had his way he wouldn't have returned to her. And regardless of his bullshit self-hate reasoning for it, continued abandonment wasn't and isn't a good solution. The Court being manipulative asshats doesn't absolve Tony of much, if anything. Annie did need to be reined in. But once again even when Tony did the right things he did them the wrong way. He's been through hell, and that sucks for him. But a lot of it, really all of it, was the result of his bad choices. He's a complex character that dug himself into a hole. He can dig his way out though. If he accepts help and faces reality. Yeah, this is my opinion as it currently stands as well: "Doesn't change much, if anything." I understand the concerns that "The Court made me do it" could tie everything up too neatly. But I don't think that is what is happening here. Not Tom's style at all. The first half is my fear, the second is my hope. |
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Post by Daedalus on Aug 26, 2015 16:35:27 GMT
I understand the concerns that "The Court made me do it" could tie everything up too neatly. But I don't think that is what is happening here. Not Tom's style at all. The first half is my fear, the second is my hope. Seconded. And the one thing that this changes is that Tony seems to have been reluctant to return, and claims to have only came back to try and protect Annie. It casts his actions in a much more positive light, at the moment, and moves the blame to another party. Which I am not entirely okay with, heh. But yeah, Tony is undeniably a poor example of a father figure, albeit becoming a more understandable one. He's got a long way to go if he wants to redeem himself to Annie. For example, finding a way to speak to her about it personally. I'll be more amenable to changing my opinion of him if/when Renard and Annie are reunited (a thousand pages from now). |
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Post by warrl on Aug 26, 2015 16:49:33 GMT
Annie has a means whereby they can communicate privately in his home without the Court even knowing it's happening (assuming Anthony is correct that he cleared all the surveillance from his home). The catch being that they can't touch, and as far as we know Annie will be restricted to writing.
"Hello Father. Mr. Donlan told me I should visit you this way so we can chat in private. Is this a good time?"
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Post by Nepycros on Aug 26, 2015 21:56:05 GMT
Annie has a means whereby they can communicate privately in his home without the Court even knowing it's happening (assuming Anthony is correct that he cleared all the surveillance from his home). The catch being that they can't touch, and as far as we know Annie will be restricted to writing. "Hello Father. Mr. Donlan told me I should visit you this way so we can chat in private. Is this a good time?" He just needs to build another antennae, then he can chat with her all he likes! |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Aug 27, 2015 1:44:01 GMT
Crazy-Ass-Clown said I...
- I will drop Crazy if Anthony can stay away from the peyote, or whatever he was tripping on when he cut his own hand off.
- I will consider dropping Clown if Anthony admits there's stuff he doesn't know and he demonstrates that either he knows not to mess with it, or he knows to ask for help.
- The only way I can see myself dropping Ass (or Ass-Hat if you want to be more formal) is if Anthony develops to the point that Kat forgives him.
I will give Anthony the benefit of the doubt concerning the peyote, so Ass-Clown says I.
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Post by sherni on Sept 15, 2015 21:31:30 GMT
I ended up picking option 7. I'm not the one who's supposed to be doing the forgiving anyway...
I'm not entirely sure if this is the right thread for this, but the more I look back and think about Anthony's actions, the worse his behaviour looks. In fact, both he and the Court have this in common- neither of them see Annie as a person.
Take the Court. I think their outlook on Antimony has been near antagonistic almost from the beginning. It's been brought up many times, but they did nothing about her cheating despite it being their (legal) duty as both an educational institute and her guardian in Anthony's place. I got the impression that they were simply waiting for the opportunity to come down heavily on her, and squirrelling away the misdemeanours so that they could do it all the harder. And all of that not for a spy, not for an enemy, but for a teenage girl. And the worst of it is that they didn't even make an attempt to win her over in any manner. For example, when Annie took Coyote's offer to be the Forest Medium, she did so directly after being humiliated by the Court, being told that she could no longer visit the Forest and being callously asked to give up Renard as if he was actually a stuffed toy and not a good friend. Right after Coyote made his offer, the Court responded by making a rather not-subtle threat. None of these actions could have done anything to endear the Court to her (although by that point I think they had given her up as a lost cause, if she was even a cause at all). If they were so afraid of her going over to Team Coyote, there were a number of things they could have done to keep her from it. They could have given her a proper explanation, maybe allowed her to sit in on some 'Inner Council' meetings. When Coyote made his offer, they could have asked her to take some time to think about it and then taken her aside later to talk to her on the matter. They could have taken the opportunity of having one of their own in Coyote's employment. Instead they... well... crushed her as brutally as they could by using her utterly broken father. They knew her weak point, but apparently nothing more about her as a person. They pretty much embody humanity's fondness for using a bulldozer where a spade would have sufficed.
And speaking of the father, did they know where he was all this time? Were they aware of what he was doing? And they just sat around and let him destroy himself? I know the Court likes being all free-range with its kids, but there's letting someone choose their own path and then there's watching him make a bee-line for a swamp!
With Anthony, I'm pretty sure that he doesn't see Annie as a person either. He abandoned her after Surma's death, justifying his action with 'How could she live with the man that killed her mother?' He didn't ask her if she could. He didn't consider how much he hurt her by not being there. He didn't consider that by leaving, he was effectively orphaning her. He didn't think about how worried she would be about him, not knowing where he was or what had happened. He decided he knew what she was thinking and didn't bother with the rest. It didn't even occur to him to ask her about the psychopomps- and as Surma's daughter, she would be a very likely person to know about them. And if that wasn't bad enough, he sent her alone to Gunnerkrigg Court. It's a place that is somewhat more dangerous for its students than a normal boarding school. And there's no way he doesn't know that. In her first year, she was injured and almost killed by Renard. It could have been much worse. She could have fallen ill. getting into nasty territory here, but she was around 12 when she left. That is old enough to get pregnant. With no knowledge of her heritage, what would have happened if she did? Surma didn't tell her. But she's also dead. It falls to her father and he didn't tell her either.
With his return, we got an explanation for what he's been up to all this time, and as sorry as I feel for him, it's very difficult to empathise. He tossed his living daughter and responsibility away in a quest to speak to his deceased wife. I know what depression is. I've been there. But no amount of mental illness can mitigate the fact that Anthony is a dreadful and utterly useless parent. I'm not too sure what to make of his cruelty to her when he first arrived. He says he 'almost lost his mind'. He couldn't keep it together long enough to behave civilly? And it's pretty obvious that he has simply matter be since then. He hasn't tried to apologise or make up for his behaviour. We seem him in absolute misery about the the way he's treated her, but he's apparently too busy wallowing in self pity to do anything about it. He can't bring himself to apologise? Then at lest acknowledge (to Annie) that she didn't deserve his harshness. He can't bring himself to face her? Then use a phone. He can't bear to hear her voice? Write her a letter. But do something!
Unless this is the alcohol talking and a sober Anthony simply refuses to acknowledge that he did anything wrong. Annie isn't a person to him. She's an extension of Surma. That is what he loves, not his daughter herself.
Oddly enough, this is where Coyote wins. Whether or not he sees her that way, he does treat Annie as a person. And he does seem to care somewhat, if the recent pages are an indication. He gives her information and shows her kindness and respect. Doesn't change the fact that he's a twisted, capricious monster, but he's a monster who seems to have read How to Win Friends and Influence People.
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Post by CoyoteReborn on Sept 16, 2015 5:46:10 GMT
he's a twisted, capricious monster Twisted, capricious, and proud of it! *cackles madly*Annie's way too much fun to be locked away somewhere away from the light. She must be set free, so that her fire can scorch the very sky and burn all of those pompous, presumptuous, stuffy fools at the Court! With a little help from yours truly, of course. |
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