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Post by sherni on Aug 20, 2015 18:31:54 GMT
ccording to the esteemed author, Coyote could have cured Surma. Which might mean that it is do-able. Maybe not with human methods, but with etheric ones? But Surma (as far as we know) made no attempt to pursue any etheric methods to save herself. Looking at the connection between them in this page, it occurred to me that maybe because she did not want to take the chance that it would harm her daughter? The logical way that Coyote could have done that would have been to make Surma human and free the fire to be just a fire elemental, thus ending the line. But even in doing that there would have to be someone's life-story sacrificed, methinks. And also then there would be no comic. Well... yes. Really, I have no idea how he might have done it. Just pointing it out that Mr. Siddell said he probably could have. And that Surma may not have tried to save herself. Sort of in the way that a pregnant woman might not take medication she needs because it might harm her unborn child.
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Post by pxc on Aug 20, 2015 18:37:25 GMT
Lots of angry people in this thread? I could be wrong, but have there actually been folks saying things along the lines of 'Anthony is evil incarnate/worst person ever/and so on' here and in the threads for the last few pages (sarcasm excepted)? The discussions there seemed to be pretty reasonable to me. The general consensus seems to be that his behaviour towards Annie is unnecessarily harsh, and his actions very, very unwise and selfish. Veering off to a slightly different topic here, but according to the esteemed author, Coyote could have cured Surma. Which might mean that it is do-able. Maybe not with human methods, but with etheric ones? But Surma (as far as we know) made no attempt to pursue any etheric methods to save herself. Looking at the connection between them in this page, it occurred to me that maybe because she did not want to take the chance that it would harm her daughter? The answer is no. Most of the "I hope he dies a fiery death" posts were made months ago when we were first introduced to him. Most I've read recently have been "He's made terrible decisions and there's no justifying those, but they're now at least understandable. He should apologize, but this relationship can be saved." But it is a convenient tactic to misrepresent and hyperbolize your opponents' arguments so that it is easier to argue against it. Or I guess it could just be perspective. You and I read them a certain way, others may see hate and vitriol where we see a measured response. And likewise where you or I might see an irrational, overly-emotional tantrum, others might just feel justified passion or even just a measured response of their own.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 20, 2015 19:10:59 GMT
The logical way that Coyote could have done that would have been to make Surma human and free the fire to be just a fire elemental, thus ending the line. But even in doing that there would have to be someone's life-story sacrificed, methinks. And also then there would be no comic. Well... yes. Really, I have no idea how he might have done it. Just pointing it out that Mr. Siddell said he probably could have. And that Surma may not have tried to save herself. Sort of in the way that a pregnant woman might not take medication she needs because it might harm her unborn child. Okay. But it does bear noting that Coyote is a god and thus plays god all the time without the usual moral impediments. Surma may have asked Coyote about what it would take to "cure" her and decided it wasn't worth the price, even if it only cost her and her line the fire.
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Sadie
Full Member
I eat food and sleep in a horizontal position.
Posts: 146
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Post by Sadie on Aug 20, 2015 19:39:31 GMT
Nice snark. Regardless of the insincere distraction, the actual Pretty Fair Standard that you claimed to be fairly upholding was this: i think it's pretty fair to judge a character harshly when they do things that make them worthy of being judged harshly Somehow, bizarrely, that "pretty fair standard" only leads to endless Silence as regards no end of Deceitful Manipulation By Supernaturals taking place on this page, across this entire chapter, and throughout the whole comic. My friend, people being biased and hypocritical about their opinions doesn't inherently mean that their points aren't valid. Someone who calls me out for taking twice my share of Friday Office Donuts even though they never say a word about my constantly late co-worker may be a jerk, but they're not a wrong jerk. Taking twice my share is still crappy and doesn't say anything good about me as a person. This remains true even if the person calling me out cheats on their spouse and takes naps during office hours. Holy Hyperbole Batman! The hell it does. You're voicing a very biased perspective in that list. As multiple Anthony defenders have pointed out, we don't know if Annie's switch to demure blue dresses without jewelry was something imposed by her father, or a choice she made, but either way, the idea that she was being a "socially-prestigious fashion plate" in the first place is not even mildly substantiated by the comic. Your reading is no more fair or balanced than anyone else's, and just as heavily influenced by your personal views. (Like apparently that an otherwise socially reserved girl who dresses nicely was neglecting her studies to prance around like a fashion plate. What.) But speaking of biased perspectives, that's really my entire issue with Anthony Carver. He approached the situation with a solid idea in his head of what Annie was thinking and feeling about him, and reacted accordingly without ever taking the risk of directly confronting her. Half of the actions that make people mad at him originate with that behavior. No he didn't. Even he says he THOUGHT he saw Surma. It may well have been an illusion super-imposed over what he antenna was really pulling out (Annie). You're setting rules for people to express their opinions, then high-highhandedly scoffing at them for not meeting your self-created standard. No one should have to write a novel carefully analyzing every single character's actions when there's only one character they want to talk about. That's just silly. You know, no one is actually a bad person for liking Tony and thinking his actions are reasonable and justified. Or for disliking him for whatever reasons. Again, his character touches on a lot of personal issues, and there's going to be a lot of strong reactions specifically because people relate so closely to him or Annie's situation. But to completely dismiss all strongly negative judgement of him as irrational and weird and not worth addressing is dodging the subject.
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Post by aline on Aug 20, 2015 20:20:35 GMT
Well... yes. Really, I have no idea how he might have done it. Just pointing it out that Mr. Siddell said he probably could have. And that Surma may not have tried to save herself. Sort of in the way that a pregnant woman might not take medication she needs because it might harm her unborn child. Okay. But it does bear noting that Coyote is a god and thus plays god all the time without the usual moral impediments. Surma may have asked Coyote about what it would take to "cure" her and decided it wasn't worth the price, even if it only cost her and her line the fire. Tom's answer was "if he was interested, he could probably do just about anything, including cure Surma". He meant Coyote is powerful enough to bend the universe itself. But he was never interested, that was all a theoretical answer to a theoretical question.
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Post by smokeitdonnie on Aug 20, 2015 21:12:06 GMT
Ok, I have a horrible name on the board. I'll change it if I can. I have decided to stop lurking from way back, since I have tonnes of questions after this comic:
Did Zimmy's attack hurt Anthony, or Summa? Since the bonettenna is attached to Summa in the comic. And did Jeanne attack Summa when she was at the Court? And since Annie didn't have anything to take to the aether when her mother died, does that mean that she really wasn't there, and was really part of Annie? Does the fire side of Annie have Summa's memory? Since Annie and the fire spirit seem to be separated currently, was Anthony successful in saving Annie from her mother's doom? Is Anthony protecting her from the Court, which was really irked at her when the Coyote picked her to the Forest's representative, by being cold to her? Or is he acting for the court in persecuting her, perhaps unwillingly?
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Post by Nepycros on Aug 20, 2015 22:17:53 GMT
Lemme just get this out there: You OBVIOUSLY think that him attempting to take matters into his own hands, distrust the dysfunctional semi-government that created a social climate that caused people to actively hate etheric beings, and end up failing to prevent an almost unreasonable paradigm of reproduction such as a daughter stealing her mother's life force, is somehow a delusion of godhood. Who the hell do you think you are to decide that solitary motivations that are at odds with what the story has presented regarding the nature of life and death are some kinds of claims to be a god. Because every scientist that attempts to stall certain death, and every surgeon that feels that their patient's life rests on their hands is apparently deluding themselves into believing they're actually GODS. Believing that you were certain of success because you wanted to believe that you would succeed is wrong. Okay, when did he assume he would succeed? Point it out to me where he stated that his awesomeness guaranteed success. Or are you simply stating that hopeful wishing is somehow delusions of grandeur, that earnestly striving toward a better alternative to what's in front of you is wrong?
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Post by Trillium on Aug 20, 2015 23:16:58 GMT
The reactions to Anthony now that he's shown up have been harsh.
This web comic has followed Annie and her life in the Court. She is the hero of the story; plucky girl shipped off to a weird boarding school after her mom died with no word from her dad for a couple of years. Most have given her more questionable activities a pass. She's taken Reynard under her wing, ducked out of detention, run away to live in the forest over a summer, she's been cheating off her best friend's work for years, which is something she should have been expelled for, gone against the wishes of the Court in working for Coyote, etc., etc. She's nearly gotten killed a number of times. These are the sort of things that give parents premature grey hair. Back In her early days at school Eglamore hinted she could be a bit more descrete, "If you're going to break the rules you should try harder not to get caught." The school seems not too concerned with behavior as long the students are discrete.
Now her dad finally shows up and starts putting restrictions on her. People were angry before he showed up. Now he's here and being high handed, distant, separated her from her friends and classmates and at first seemed to have put an end to Annie's adventures. He's a cold fish as well as a wet blanket. He treats Annie with a seemingly distant and uncaring attitude. There is nothing warm and fuzzy about him. We are just now finding out about some of his questionable behavior. He isn't a sympathetic character. Jones and Eglamore have provided more parental guidance than absent Tony. Why are so many people angry? He's Annie's dad and we expect dads to be protective and have some loving feelings for their children. There are other examples of responsibe adults and parents, by comparison Tony comes off a poor second if not third.
This is a very complicated story with a lot of characters, plots, subplots and threads. Tony has finally shown up and surprise, surprise he's complicated things further. He apparently complicated things back in the Divine chapter from afar. Now he is in the Court, teaching and taking up the parental perogotives he more or less abandoned years ago and doing the dad thing poorly in most eyes. This has provoked annoyance to rage is some readers. We are just going to have to see how this story unfolds. Will Anthony prove to be father worthy of Annie's love and an ally in her struggles or a bloody hindrance? The ball as always is in Tom's Court.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 20, 2015 23:25:06 GMT
Okay. But it does bear noting that Coyote is a god and thus plays god all the time without the usual moral impediments. Surma may have asked Coyote about what it would take to "cure" her and decided it wasn't worth the price, even if it only cost her and her line the fire. Tom's answer was "if he was interested, he could probably do just about anything, including cure Surma". He meant Coyote is powerful enough to bend the universe itself. But he was never interested, that was all a theoretical answer to a theoretical question.
Unknown. If it was in the context of showing off how great he was, [hypothetically quoth Surma, "So there are things even a god like YOU can't do, Coyote?"] he might have at least answered how he could do it and what would happen if he did. It wouldn't shock me if he offered... particularly if there was an amusing dilemma involved for Surma.
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Sadie
Full Member
I eat food and sleep in a horizontal position.
Posts: 146
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Post by Sadie on Aug 20, 2015 23:38:28 GMT
Believing that you were certain of success because you wanted to believe that you would succeed is wrong. Okay, when did he assume he would succeed? Point it out to me where he stated that his awesomeness guaranteed success. It's conjecture based off how he talks about what happened. He says "after I proved to be a complete failure", notably to avoid saying that she died, and then follows it up with " Antimony... how could she live with the man who killed her mother?" Does he mean "killed her mother" as in "by getting her pregnant" or killed her as "didn't cure her condition"? When Donnie says that Surma knew what she was getting into -- one of several truths that absolves Anthony of responsibility for her death -- Tony deflects by saying "I promised I could help", which strongly implies that he nonetheless holds himself accountable. Ultimately, Tony hasn't let go of the idea that he should have been able to do something. His entire quest was him trying to full-fill a loving, well-meant, but misguided promise. More than anything, he's not letting himself accept and he's not letting himself grieve. It's been three years and he still can't bring himself to say "when Surma died". Coming to terms with your own powerlessness and how little control you have over life events is extremely difficult for everyone. But as a reader, it's easy to look from the outside of this, see the simple answer, and yell GET OVER YOURSELF.
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Post by justcurious on Aug 20, 2015 23:45:28 GMT
Believing that you were certain of success because you wanted to believe that you would succeed is wrong. Okay, when did he assume he would succeed? Point it out to me where he stated that his awesomeness guaranteed success. Or are you simply stating that hopeful wishing is somehow delusions of grandeur, that earnestly striving toward a better alternative to what's in front of you is wrong? When he said that Annie would have blame him for her mother's death and he thought this was how it should be. He believed even after her death that saving her had been within his power and that his failure had to have been because he had not tried hard enough or had not been not clever enough. He refused to face up to his limitations. Ton's self image is too tied up with his opinion of his efficacy for his own good. And he expects others to share his opinion of his efficacy and judge him by his own unreasonable expectations.
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Post by Nepycros on Aug 21, 2015 0:34:19 GMT
How often do people end up telling others, "You did all you could," even when the person is in a state of serious grief? Blaming yourself for failing isn't some claim at godhood, it's just a reaction to realizing that the worst possible thing has happened. Not admitting it's out of our control is an absolutely human thing to do, and giving Tony shit for such a commonly perceived trope is asinine.
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Post by justcurious on Aug 21, 2015 0:44:41 GMT
How often do people end up telling others, "You did all you could," even when the person is in a state of serious grief? Blaming yourself for failing isn't some claim at godhood, it's just a reaction to realizing that the worst possible thing has happened. Not admitting it's out of our control is an absolutely human thing to do, and giving Tony shit for such a commonly perceived trope is asinine. Giving him shit for abandoning his daughter for this reason is fair. That is what the condemnation is over.
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Post by Nepycros on Aug 21, 2015 0:56:51 GMT
How often do people end up telling others, "You did all you could," even when the person is in a state of serious grief? Blaming yourself for failing isn't some claim at godhood, it's just a reaction to realizing that the worst possible thing has happened. Not admitting it's out of our control is an absolutely human thing to do, and giving Tony shit for such a commonly perceived trope is asinine. Giving him shit for abandoning his daughter for this reason is fair. That is what the condemnation is over. Half of it is, the other is condemning him for attributes that people project onto him: Feigned godhood, egotistical obsession, etc. All of this ignores the reality of a grieving husband and surgeon trying everything he can to succeed. They'll point to his flaws or his lack of intelligence while brazenly ignoring the near omniscient narrative we've been fed, an understanding of the world that someone like Tony surely lacks. And so they give him grief over the "certainty" of Surma's death, and claim that him trying to stall or supercede it is some claim to godhood.
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Post by antiyonder on Aug 21, 2015 1:38:14 GMT
And so they give him grief over the "certainty" of Surma's death, and claim that him trying to stall or supercede it is some claim to godhood. If I may interject some defense, though I can't speak for everyone, it's not so much a problem that he was hoping to prevent his wife from dying or going around the rules. The problem is that he seemed 100% sure he'd succeed with nary a doubt in his mind. And while I honestly am all for one being optimistic, it doesn't hurt to consider the slight chance that things can go wrong.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 21, 2015 2:47:41 GMT
For me there are two things there. One is that Anthony is a medical professional and as such should be held to a higher standard. Yep, she is his wife and that makes it very hard to remain professional and yes, it's common practice to tell patients very positive things because a positive attitude helps achieve positive results. Even so, things still go bad and even a young doc should know that.
The second thing is the issue of hubris. It may be a common struggle for young docs to understand that they are not gods but that is also something that is beaten into their skulls in medical school. Well, in places that are not the Court that is true, and here the blame may possibly get spread around. In any case, doctors are not omniscient; in RL the Dr. House test that solves the problem may not get run for years and a life-ruining problem may snowball into three other conditions before the root gets diagnosed and it's really nobody's fault. That happens to people all the time. Even when the correct treatment (according to the textbooks) is applied some patients don't respond in the correct way. Sometimes the surgical team missed something they could have corrected, but often not and it's usually not malpractice, they just can't see everything. In RL we just have ethical issues, we can't talk to authorities on such things and find out about peoples' fate. Even if Anthony only had Surma's family tradition that carries weight in the etherically-enabled Gunnerverse; Surma's case is fairly straightforward. The reason he didn't know he wouldn't get a good result is either because he didn't respect how the Gunnerverse operates, which is every bit as bad as a real medical professional discarding known drug and natural supplement data, or because he chose not to know.
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Post by Nepycros on Aug 21, 2015 2:50:18 GMT
And so they give him grief over the "certainty" of Surma's death, and claim that him trying to stall or supercede it is some claim to godhood. If I may interject some defense, though I can't speak for everyone, it's not so much a problem that he was hoping to prevent his wife from dying or going around the rules. The problem is that he seemed 100% sure he'd succeed with nary a doubt in his mind. And while I honestly am all for one being optimistic, it doesn't hurt to consider the slight chance that things can go wrong. That's just it, that statement has no basis. Calling yourself a failure is different from assuming a 100% success rate prior to failing. There's no basis. If I flunk out of college next semester, and chalk it entirely up to me being a failure, that's not under the assumption that I was guaranteed to succeed. No, a failure's a failure, and that's exactly what Tony sees himself as. Not a god, not infallible. Everyone's throwing this assumed bravado and egoism onto a character that has displayed not one of those qualities. HOW do people not get this?
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Post by Nepycros on Aug 21, 2015 2:53:07 GMT
For me there are two things there. One is that Anthony is a medical professional and as such should be held to a higher standard. Yep, she is his wife and that makes it very hard to remain professional and yes, it's common practice to tell patients very positive things because a positive attitude helps achieve positive results. Even so, things still go bad and even a young doc should know that. The second thing is the issue of hubris. It may be a common struggle for young docs to understand that they are not gods but that is also something that is beaten into their skulls in medical school. Well, in places that are not the Court that is true, and here the blame may possibly get spread around. In any case, doctors are not omniscient; in RL the Dr. House test that solves the problem may not get run for years and a life-ruining problem may snowball into three other conditions before the root gets diagnosed and it's really nobody's fault. That happens to people all the time. Even when the correct treatment (according to the textbooks) is applied some patients don't respond in the correct way. Sometimes the surgical team missed something they could have corrected, but often not and it's usually not malpractice, they just can't see everything. In RL we just have ethical issues, we can't talk to authorities on such things and find out about peoples' fate. Even if Anthony only had Surma's family tradition that carries weight in the etherically-enabled Gunnerverse; Surma's case is fairly straightforward. The reason he didn't know he wouldn't get a good result is either because he didn't respect how the Gunnerverse operates, which is every bit as bad as a real medical professional discarding known drug and natural supplement data, or because he chose not to know. The Court itself fosters an environment that doesn't trust anything etheric. Kids grow their whole lives seeing magically inclined beings as freaks. And suddenly we're assuming the Court is a wealth of positive knowledge about methods to ensure the etherically tuned are accounted for? Don't make me laugh. The Court creates an environment where the etheric are actually treated like trash, and not given appropriate care. Tony not knowing the exact details of his wife's conditions is not at all beyond comprehension.
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Post by kelantar on Aug 21, 2015 3:22:54 GMT
The Court itself fosters an environment that doesn't trust anything etheric. Kids grow their whole lives seeing magically inclined beings as freaks. And suddenly we're assuming the Court is a wealth of positive knowledge about methods to ensure the etherically tuned are accounted for? Don't make me laugh. The Court creates an environment where the etheric are actually treated like trash, and not given appropriate care. Tony not knowing the exact details of his wife's conditions is not at all beyond comprehension. The court was founded on the union between the etheric and scientific. There are entire houses devoted to kids with etheric abilities (just because Hyland said they were freaks doesn't mean everyone thinks that). They perform experiments involving ether (like at the power station) and study people with unusual properties (Zimmy and Jones). The court doesn't seem to have any particular disdain for etheric things themselves, as long as they can figure out kinda how they work. That seems to be the Court's ultimate goal, in fact: to unlock, understand, and harness the full power of the ether. Man's endeavor to become gods. On an unrelated note, I saw something that reminded me of the Tony/Coyote [non-]competition for Evilest Evil of Eviltown. I think this is a good comparison to why the reaction to Tony is so much more visceral than to other "bad guys". For those who don't wanna click, it's talking about Voldemort/Umbridge, and how the hate for Umbridge is more potent because evil wizards are just fantasy, but terrible teachers are real. No one has had experience with violently unstable gods in these forums, but there have been people commenting here with abusive parents. With Tom's gods, we just kind of roll with it, because these are concepts he's created, so we have no template to judge them by and take the characters' reactions at face value. But most of us have parents, and therefore we judge by our own experiences. I remember when I had bad grades in high school and they tried to move me to a different school. My mother had problems in those years, but when she saw how much it meant to me to stay at my school with my friends, she went to bat for me. She wrote letters, she talked to board members, she made arrangements with my teachers, and most importantly, she respected my feelings throughout the process. So when I see Anthony treat Antimony like shit, I think, "my mother would never do that to me, because she's not an awful parent."
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 21, 2015 3:26:03 GMT
For me there are two things there. One is that Anthony is a medical professional and as such should be held to a higher standard. Yep, she is his wife and that makes it very hard to remain professional and yes, it's common practice to tell patients very positive things because a positive attitude helps achieve positive results. Even so, things still go bad and even a young doc should know that. The second thing is the issue of hubris. It may be a common struggle for young docs to understand that they are not gods but that is also something that is beaten into their skulls in medical school. Well, in places that are not the Court that is true, and here the blame may possibly get spread around. In any case, doctors are not omniscient; in RL the Dr. House test that solves the problem may not get run for years and a life-ruining problem may snowball into three other conditions before the root gets diagnosed and it's really nobody's fault. That happens to people all the time. Even when the correct treatment (according to the textbooks) is applied some patients don't respond in the correct way. Sometimes the surgical team missed something they could have corrected, but often not and it's usually not malpractice, they just can't see everything. In RL we just have ethical issues, we can't talk to authorities on such things and find out about peoples' fate. Even if Anthony only had Surma's family tradition that carries weight in the etherically-enabled Gunnerverse; Surma's case is fairly straightforward. The reason he didn't know he wouldn't get a good result is either because he didn't respect how the Gunnerverse operates, which is every bit as bad as a real medical professional discarding known drug and natural supplement data, or because he chose not to know. The Court itself fosters an environment that doesn't trust anything etheric. Doesn't trust the etheric, I agree with. Kids grow their whole lives seeing magically inclined beings as freaks. We've seen instances of prejudice against people displaying etheric abilities, yes. No doubt some kids, including some with etheric abilities may grow up feeling like freaks. Some kids without etheric abilities may also grow up feeling like freaks. But our view into the Court has been pretty much limited to one house. And suddenly we're assuming the Court is a wealth of positive knowledge about methods to ensure the etherically tuned are accounted for? Don't make me laugh. The Court creates an environment where the etheric are actually treated like trash, and not given appropriate care. Tony not knowing the exact details of his wife's conditions is not at all beyond comprehension. Even supposing what you say is true, the Court doesn't deny that etheric powers are very real. They seem to be studying them and figuring out principles they operate on. They believe Coyote is real, even if they consider dealing with him to be tedious. I think even if Anthony decided he'd marry some pretty trash he should have respect for what she told him about her line and the fire, seeing as she was the medium to the Wood, and all...
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Post by Elysium on Aug 21, 2015 3:56:10 GMT
"I knew full well that the FE spirit is passed from mother to daughter but I still went ahead and tried to bring it back"
Goddamit Tony.
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Post by antiyonder on Aug 21, 2015 4:14:33 GMT
That's just it, that statement has no basis. Calling yourself a failure is different from assuming a 100% success rate prior to failing. There's no basis. If I flunk out of college next semester, and chalk it entirely up to me being a failure, that's not under the assumption that I was guaranteed to succeed. No, a failure's a failure, and that's exactly what Tony sees himself as. Not a god, not infallible. Everyone's throwing this assumed bravado and egoism onto a character that has displayed not one of those qualities. HOW do people not get this? I never claimed my comments as facts, just what I believe the motive will be/is. I guess I see his coldness towards Annie as an indicator of such. Rather than being open and honest with her, it's pretty much secrets and distance between the two.
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Post by warrl on Aug 21, 2015 5:13:42 GMT
Jones is not skeptical of it at all. She says Coyote is not lying when he says he put the stars in the sky At a basic level, if Coyote believes something to be true then he is not lying when he says it - even if it is not actually true. (Similarly, if he believes something to be false, but says it anyway, he's lying - even if it later turns out to be true. But then, Jones assures us that Coyote doesn't lie.) Coyote believes that humans created him, and also believes that he was around before humans. If humans created him, humans created the mythos around him, including his being around during creation to put the stars in the sky - and it would be illogical for him to not know that part of the mythos or to not remember doing it. It's just as if you were writing a piece of fiction sent in ancient Babylon, and invented a Babylonian merchant. Would that merchant not have a recollection of his own childhood? Would he not know who his suppliers are? No, he'd know everything about his own life that a modern real-world merchant knows about his, or close equivalents thereof - even if you the creator don't fill in that much detail. Your Babylonian merchant *thinks* he is real, *thinks* he has a merchant's stall here and a house there and maybe a family and so on and so on... even though he didn't exist at all until more than 2000 years after the city he lives in ceased to be. Coyote is pretty much the same - except that he is *also* an etheric being and aware that he was originally "written" by humans. He remembers being present as the world was created - because his authors told that story and it became part of the mythos he embodies. To deny that he placed the stars is to deny not merely himself, but the mythos. Yes this creates paradox. Coyote existed before he was created. Or did he? Maybe he didn't but has false memories. On the other hand, he's powerful enough to have done what the mythos says... so maybe his notion that humans created him isn't entirely correct... maybe there was an initial vague formless etheric entity that did stuff and later happened to be a close-enough fit to the very beginnings of the Coyote mythos that the pressure of human belief shaped it, and by some sort of feedback pre-Coyote's actual deeds got fed into the human legends of Coyote...
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Post by zbeeblebrox on Aug 21, 2015 5:18:53 GMT
"I knew full well that the FE spirit is passed from mother to daughter but I still went ahead and tried to bring it back" Goddamit Tony. When'd he say that??? D:
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Post by TBeholder on Aug 21, 2015 5:37:19 GMT
according to the esteemed author, Coyote could have cured Surma. Which might mean that it is do-able. Maybe not with human methods, but with etheric ones? Coyote is a god. That he can do something makes it "doable" only in a very strict sense, practically it matters very little, as humans are concerned. So this only means Coyote could have done this. But while for all we know, Surma may have been airheaded as much as she was fire-headed, she did tell Annie stories about Coyote, thus probably knew better than to ask him for a gift - at least, of the sort she couldn't just lock away in a safe if need be.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 21, 2015 5:46:07 GMT
By the way, I've been using the word "hubris" to mean "pissing up a rope." Or, best case, wasting time. Offending god(s) is possible, tho.
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Post by mishyana on Aug 21, 2015 6:12:33 GMT
One would think the "resurrecting his dead wife" bit would be enough to give any even relatively sane person pause, well before finding out whether or not doing so would harm anyone, let alone his daughter. Tony's seems to be a single-minded, driven personality that's been pushed right over the edge and then hauled back up just so it can be pushed over again. He needs help in the worst sort of way. Oh yes, in a world where everything from ghost dogs to egyptian figureheads exist to guide souls into the afterlife, which is so vaguely explained yet hinted as being a very real phenomena, it's quite insane to even consider the prospect of contacting the dead again. Absolute silliness in every respect, despite the fact that his own daughter frequently offered cordial company to the undead. Accepting the existence of the afterlife and figures of 'myth' is one thing, dragging the dead back from the afterlife is entirely another. Name me a single bit of fiction where that has ended well. Besides Lazarus.
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Post by Daedalus on Aug 21, 2015 6:28:41 GMT
Oh yes, in a world where everything from ghost dogs to egyptian figureheads exist to guide souls into the afterlife, which is so vaguely explained yet hinted as being a very real phenomena, it's quite insane to even consider the prospect of contacting the dead again. Absolute silliness in every respect, despite the fact that his own daughter frequently offered cordial company to the undead. Accepting the existence of the afterlife and figures of 'myth' is one thing, dragging the dead back from the afterlife is entirely another. Name me a single bit of fiction where that has ended well. Besides Lazarus. Someone's already written this GKC fanfiction:
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Post by Elysium on Aug 21, 2015 7:58:01 GMT
"I knew full well that the FE spirit is passed from mother to daughter but I still went ahead and tried to bring it back" Goddamit Tony. When'd he say that??? D: He didn't, I just summed up the core of his reasoning; He knew FULL WELL that some kind of essence/spirit/soul/whatever occured between Surma and Annie and that trying to reach Surma would INEVITABLY have consequences on Annie. And he went ahead and did it. He got what was coming for him.
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Post by eyemyself on Aug 21, 2015 14:54:34 GMT
He didn't, I just summed up the core of his reasoning; He knew FULL WELL that some kind of essence/spirit/soul/whatever occured between Surma and Annie and that trying to reach Surma would INEVITABLY have consequences on Annie. And he went ahead and did it. He got what was coming for him. Eh, Tony is obtuse enough about the ether (one might even go so far as to say there's a certain amount of deliberate ignorance about it on his part) that I'm willing to bet even if he was directly TOLD by multiple sources that that was how fire-elemental/human offspring work he still wouldn't believe it.
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