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Post by Kitty Hamilton on Aug 19, 2015 22:30:29 GMT
i think it's pretty fair to judge a character harshly when they do things that make them worthy of being judged harshly
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Post by darththulhu on Aug 19, 2015 23:39:46 GMT
Also, why doesn't Coyote get as much hate as Tony does? Coyote literally tricked his own cousin into killing an innocent person. And if what he does to Ysengrin isn't abuse, I don't know what is. Oh, but Coyote is so much fun to watch as he goes about playing his silly tricks! And Ys is such a stuffed shirt! Er, tree. Whatever. And Renard--who can help teasing someone besotted of an unattainable love! Coyote is just trying to help everyone lighten up and have as much fun as he does! Yeah. While also gleefully serial killing his way down the years, deceiving and reprogramming other people to also be serial killers, and then repeatedly mindraping the reprogrammed one. Also, psychologically torturing and physically violating Annie for an entire Summer the microsecond he had her first Summer attendance in the Forest locked in (let's not pretend that "say the wrong thing and *SNIP*" is anything less than an entire Summer of lingering threat and active physical violation). Anthony is a clueless and self-absorbed dip repeatedly leaving pain in his wake ... but that's not even 10% of Coyote's monstrosity. Coyote is frequently, actively, consciously, deliberately, willfully malevolent. For giggles. He's the Joker with infinite time to play with his food, and thus less urgency to get to the hilarious killing parts. Coyote is outright Evil as often as not, and the only real question between the leader of the Forest and the leaders of the Court is whether or not the Court has yet managed to become as Evil as Coyote naturally is by default.
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Post by TBeholder on Aug 19, 2015 23:47:40 GMT
I still can believe that someone indeed actively sought to trick him rather than, say, it's his hubris speaking again after he failed to give relevant details to his "little helpers". If the rest of his report includes a clean-cut case of Villainous Gloating, or something. I still don't get why he is angry with Antimony? We're getting close to that truth. You know how they're saying? Max Otto von Stirlitz: the steering wheel on the left side; James Bond: the steering wheel on the right side; Agent Mulder: the steering wheel is out there. Anthony " the TEMPEST man" Carver: haha! I hid my steering wheel under the chair so that no one would figure out! Let me get to it... Now the question is, Zimmy's fists of fury aside, what did he do after that incident? He didn't immediately run back to GK. I can't imagine he's listless - he's gotta have some kind of plan up his sleeve. Let me guess. He tried to remember what that "critical thinking" thingy was, but then decided to not waste time, so instead he ignored his ignorance and boldly concocted some grand scheme that must not be calling harebrained, as it's unfair to the rodent who at least knows when to bug out is even more delusional than the last one CANNOT FAIL NOW. What kind of humility do you prescribe to someone who blames himself for the death of his significant other? ...which he managed to not notice being a foregone conclusion for everyone including herself? I dunno... dumping his borderline delusion of godhood? This would be a good start, at least. Tony's seems to be a single-minded, driven personality that's been pushed right over the edge and then hauled back up just so it can be pushed over again. He needs help in the worst sort of way. Yup. Zimmy helped a little, but this must not become her day job. Annie looks flabbergasted, the Fire is raging again; it will jump out of the blinker any minute now... The poor thing really gets to rage at them all, doesn't it?.. Fire: He... Of all the half-witted... Nghhhhh!.. Annie: Wait - it was not a dream?! Annie: Wait... I can legitimately chat with a part of myself! No need for company now? Fire: And you!.. Nghhhhh!.. Dude is not just seriously disturbed and needing help, Donny needs to get him in the van with people in white coats ASAP before he can do more damage. "No John, you are the demons." Tony is "people in white coats" himself... and tries to render help, probably. That would be an ominous recursion.
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Post by darththulhu on Aug 19, 2015 23:57:13 GMT
i think it's pretty fair to judge a character harshly when they do things that make them worthy of being judged harshly Then we all await, with baited breath, the expenditure of even 5% of the bile vomited all over Anthony Carver when (not if, when) Coyote commits his next few dozen acts of willful murder, "truthful" deceit, serial mindrape, months-long physical violation, unloving mindgames, and giving of Poisoned Gifts. Because clearly, it's all about fairly judging each character exactly as harshly as they are worthy of being judged.
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Post by Per on Aug 20, 2015 0:11:34 GMT
Coyote is fictional too!
♫ Abuse, abuse, abuse, abuse the grizzled old wolf! ♫
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Post by todd on Aug 20, 2015 0:13:16 GMT
Also, why doesn't Coyote get as much hate as Tony does? Coyote literally tricked his own cousin into killing an innocent person. And if what he does to Ysengrin isn't abuse, I don't know what is. Others have said this already, but I think that Coyote gets away with it because he does his bad deeds in a comical way. He's discovered, to quote C. S. Lewis in "The Screwtape Letters", "that almost anything he wants to do can be done, not only without the disapproval but with the admiration of his fellows, if only it can get itself treated as a Joke" (p. 51-52, Collier Books edition).
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Post by warrl on Aug 20, 2015 0:16:07 GMT
Also, Coyote is recognized as "not even supposed to try to be human". Therefore he is not necessarily judged by human standards.
Whereas Mr. Carver certainly appears to be intended to try to be human.
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Post by spoonr on Aug 20, 2015 0:16:07 GMT
I wonder what exactly those creatures were up to. They obviously aren't a particularly savoury lot. Did they trick him because they wanted something from him or Surma? Or just because they could? Or was it not a trick at all (in their eyes)? Maybe they really thought they were giving him what he wanted. Eldritch Abominations that they are, they might not have any idea that harming a daughter to get the mother back is not an acceptable solution. However did Anthony end up with them? Is it because no one else could (or would) help him? Sort of like turning to the black market when the legitimate shops don't cut it? Except this is worse than most black markets. Consider the cost of this attempt. Even if someone knew how to make the antennae it's unlikely they would want to do it or even recommend it. Which makes me wonder if he just kept ignoring people who told him 'no' until he found someone (things?) who told him what he wanted to hear. Seems to me like folks are being too quick to assume omniscence. I mean, walk up to a random person and ask them 'how do I contact Bobby Bob?" Before internet, they'd probably tell you to look in a phonebook, because they have no clue who Bob is! And if there is a Bob in the phonebook, but not your Bob, then... oops..
We're assuming that the psychopomps know about GC, know Surma, know that Surma was a medium and descended from a fire elemental, and knew what happens when a part-elemental has a child. And/or Anthony knew what to tell them (obviously not). So, he asks how to contact random dead person, and they tell him what would work for 99.99% of people. No malice, no prank, basically just Tony asking the wrong question.
Course, if one of those things is Coyote, then flame on.
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Post by justcurious on Aug 20, 2015 0:37:30 GMT
There were three things that people were angry at Tony over. The first was his abandonment of Annie.The second was putting her in a coma. The third was his behaviour towards her one he came back. I thought we would get reasons that made sense from his view point but that others would not see as excuse. The apparent behaviour was after all bad and the obvious reasons why he could have done them were also bad. Well we have answers to the first two now and yes they do make sense from his viewpoint and no they do not justify his actions. His reasons were not as bad as they appeared to be but they still reflected badly on him. It looked like he might have abandoned Annie because he did not care about her or resented her for her mother's death. He actually abandoned her because of a guilt trip driven by conceit. Not as bad a motive but still a bad one. It looked like he had put Annie in a coma because he was presumptuously trying to operate on her without her consent. He actually did this through a reckless mistake. Not as bad as it looked but still bad. The obvious bad reasons for his behaviour were ones that fitted with what we knew of his character. We know more now. I expect we will be getting an explanation of his behaviour since he got back soon. I expect it will follow the same pattern and will make sense but not excuse. Much of it is behaviour that would be difficult to excuse.
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Post by Kitty Hamilton on Aug 20, 2015 0:39:25 GMT
i think it's pretty fair to judge a character harshly when they do things that make them worthy of being judged harshly Then we all await, with baited breath, the expenditure of even 5% of the bile vomited all over Anthony Carver when (not if, when) Coyote commits his next few dozen acts of willful murder, "truthful" deceit, serial mindrape, months-long physical violation, unloving mindgames, and giving of Poisoned Gifts. Because clearly, it's all about fairly judging each character exactly as harshly as they are worthy of being judged. What does Coyote have to do with anything? I thought we were talking about Anthony. Why do people keep bringing up Coyote? Is Coyote being evil supposed to make me like Anthony more? Doesn't seem relevant. Hey, maybe you just don't UNDERSTAND Coyote! You shouldn't be so quick to harshly judge a character! Why, maybe if we understood the situation more, we'd feel terrible for thinking bad things about Coyote! /s
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Post by Nepycros on Aug 20, 2015 1:09:06 GMT
What kind of humility do you prescribe to someone who blames himself for the death of his significant other? ...which he managed to not notice being a foregone conclusion for everyone including herself? I dunno... dumping his borderline delusion of godhood? This would be a good start, at least. Lemme just get this out there: You OBVIOUSLY think that him attempting to take matters into his own hands, distrust the dysfunctional semi-government that created a social climate that caused people to actively hate etheric beings, and end up failing to prevent an almost unreasonable paradigm of reproduction such as a daughter stealing her mother's life force, is somehow a delusion of godhood. Who the hell do you think you are to decide that solitary motivations that are at odds with what the story has presented regarding the nature of life and death are some kinds of claims to be a god. Because every scientist that attempts to stall certain death, and every surgeon that feels that their patient's life rests on their hands is apparently deluding themselves into believing they're actually GODS.
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Post by justcurious on Aug 20, 2015 1:40:00 GMT
...which he managed to not notice being a foregone conclusion for everyone including herself? I dunno... dumping his borderline delusion of godhood? This would be a good start, at least. Lemme just get this out there: You OBVIOUSLY think that him attempting to take matters into his own hands, distrust the dysfunctional semi-government that created a social climate that caused people to actively hate etheric beings, and end up failing to prevent an almost unreasonable paradigm of reproduction such as a daughter stealing her mother's life force, is somehow a delusion of godhood. Who the hell do you think you are to decide that solitary motivations that are at odds with what the story has presented regarding the nature of life and death are some kinds of claims to be a god. Because every scientist that attempts to stall certain death, and every surgeon that feels that their patient's life rests on their hands is apparently deluding themselves into believing they're actually GODS. Trying to forestall something when the odds were against success is not wrong. Believing that you were certain of success because you wanted to believe that you would succeed is wrong. Blaming yourself for what was in hindsight an inevitable failure as a means of refusing to admit that success was beyond your capability is wrong. Expecting others to share your inflated opinion of your abilities is wrong. Abandoning your child as a result of expecting that child to share you judgment of what was in your power is wrong
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 20, 2015 1:40:28 GMT
Welcome to the forums, all new people! ...which he managed to not notice being a foregone conclusion for everyone including herself? I dunno... dumping his borderline delusion of godhood? This would be a good start, at least. Lemme just get this out there: You OBVIOUSLY think that him attempting to take matters into his own hands, distrust the dysfunctional semi-government that created a social climate that caused people to actively hate etheric beings, and end up failing to prevent an almost unreasonable paradigm of reproduction such as a daughter stealing her mother's life force, is somehow a delusion of godhood. Who the hell do you think you are to decide that solitary motivations that are at odds with what the story has presented regarding the nature of life and death are some kinds of claims to be a god. Because every scientist that attempts to stall certain death, and every surgeon that feels that their patient's life rests on their hands is apparently deluding themselves into believing they're actually GODS. In RL it is (probably) useful to dismiss the belief that someone is doomed to die based on a view of lifeforce transfer like in Surma's line and pursue all treatments available. But in the comic Coyote says that it's the fate of Antimony's kind. Even if Surma never asked Coyote or anyone else about her fate what would happen to her was well known. In the GC universe that means Anthony was denying the fundamental reality of the situation, so if he'd respected things etheric then he'd have known what he was doing was hopeless (as Surma probably did) and if he started in with etheric tinkering then he was engaging in the equivalent of playing god (deciding who should live and who should die).
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Post by Sky Schemer on Aug 20, 2015 3:42:36 GMT
Also, why doesn't Coyote get as much hate as Tony does? Coyote literally tricked his own cousin into killing an innocent person. And if what he does to Ysengrin isn't abuse, I don't know what is. Coyote is a god. So right off the bat there is a problem with trying to apply human values to him. But the larger issue is that as a god in this story he was created by the minds of man, and man created him with this as his very nature. It's more than just who he is: it's what he is. He can no more stop being the trickster, and a master of manipulation, than he can stop existing. So does it make sense to "judge" him? He did not have a choice in what he is. He was created this way.
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Post by darththulhu on Aug 20, 2015 4:08:38 GMT
Then we all await, with baited breath, the expenditure of even 5% of the bile vomited all over Anthony Carver when (not if, when) Coyote commits his next few dozen acts of willful murder, "truthful" deceit, serial mindrape, months-long physical violation, unloving mindgames, and giving of Poisoned Gifts. Because clearly, it's all about fairly judging each character exactly as harshly as they are worthy of being judged. What does Coyote have to do with anything? I thought we were talking about Anthony. Well, you thought wrong. In this thread we have been talking about everyone in this scene, who are far more people than merely Anthony Carver. Why do people keep bringing up Coyote? 1) Given that a few dozen people have actively speculated that this cluster of pseudo-pomps may (or may not be) doing Coyote's Work, people quite reasonably keep bringing him up. 2) Given that Coyote himself may actually be In This Flashback Scene, people quite reasonably keep bringing him up. 3) Given the amen-choir endlessly bringing up how Anthony Carver quite obviously deserves to be shamed as Gunnerkrigg Court's Worst Monster, regardless of the content of the present page or any prior ones, people quite reasonably keep bringing Coyote up (for the sake of comparison). Is Coyote being evil supposed to make me like Anthony more? Hard as it may be to envision, this chapter of the comic is addressing matters more significant to Antimony than whether or not Anthony Carver is someone you find likable. Coyote being 10x more Evil than Anthony Carver (at an absolute minimum) is of incredible significance to nearly all of those other "actually meaningful to Antimony's story" topics. Obviously. Hey, maybe you just don't UNDERSTAND Coyote! You shouldn't be so quick to harshly judge a character! Why, maybe if we understood the situation more, we'd feel terrible for thinking bad things about Coyote! /s Nice snark. Regardless of the insincere distraction, the actual Pretty Fair Standard that you claimed to be fairly upholding was this: i think it's pretty fair to judge a character harshly when they do things that make them worthy of being judged harshly Somehow, bizarrely, that "pretty fair standard" only leads to endless Silence as regards no end of Deceitful Manipulation By Supernaturals taking place on this page, across this entire chapter, and throughout the whole comic. Instead, there is a lightning-quick leap to ignore the present page entirely so as to repeat and defend the repetition of the Obviously True accusations of Anthony Carver as History's Worst Monster for such unforgivable atrocities as 1) making his daughter repeat a grade she cheated her way through, 2) making her stop wearing makeup, 3) making her stop being a socially-prestigious fashion plate more than a student, 4) making her stop spending more time being dorm-buddies rather than a student, 5) making her stop hanging out with a lewd serial killer, 6) making her stop working alongside a mentally-unhinged serial killer, 7) making her stop working directly for an utterly-remorseless serial killer (and egomaniac), and 8) being a great big jerkface in his methods of imposing the previous items. Seriously. That's what the "pretty fair standard" works out to in practice for Anthony Carver ... who incidently just did something on these pages that several etheric "experts" and Gods have previously asserted to be outright impossible, while being deceitfully tricked by several of the supernatural entities sharing these pages with him. Weird as that endlessly harsh judgment of Anthony Carver under the "pretty fair standard" is, it would at least be logically coherent if similar such applications of the "pretty fair standard" were applied to any character other than Anthony Carver appearing on all these pages. Such as Annie. Or Surma. Or "the Fire". Or the deceitful pseudo-pomps, including quite-possibly-Coyote. Except that "pretty fair standard" never gets applied elsewhere. Which means it isn't actually a "pretty fair standard" at all, but instead an unconvincing rationalization to sanctify constantly spewing hatred on one and only one character, regardless of what that one character is or is not doing in the actual comic of the day.
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Post by darththulhu on Aug 20, 2015 4:27:53 GMT
Also, why doesn't Coyote get as much hate as Tony does? Coyote literally tricked his own cousin into killing an innocent person. And if what he does to Ysengrin isn't abuse, I don't know what is. Coyote is a god. So right off the bat there is a problem with trying to apply human values to him. That has never been a problem that any culture has had applying moral values to the divine. Even the Greeks knew that the Olympians were often jerkfaces, and fully expected Payback and Comeuppance for that jerkfacery, even for the Gods, in time. Ragnarok was all about unavoidable consequences for the Norse. And being More Than Human held the Persian and Indian and Hindu and Chinese pantheons to much higher standards, not to lower ones. According to what evidence? According to whose theory? Always be skeptical of a self-serving source without independent confirmation. No real evidence or argument beyond that same Self-Dealing Deceiver? And nevermind that General Wolf-Tree-God actively disbelieves the theory? And Immortal Indestructible Woman-God is skeptical of it? Clearly, we should ignore all that and always accept Coyote's self-serving hypothesis as always 100% accurate, especially when it "absolves" him of any moral responsibility for anything. How very convenient for him. He can no more stop being the trickster, and a master of manipulation, than he can stop existing. So does it make sense to "judge" him? He did not have a choice in what he is. He was created this way. So he claims. Somehow, Jones and Ysengrin and Reynardine all think they have choices to make and changes to embrace and consider themselves open to judgment based on their behavior. What makes Coyote convincingly different from them, other than fathomless egomania? Why should that fathomless egomania and habitual deceit absolve him of anything?
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Post by warrl on Aug 20, 2015 5:03:50 GMT
We're assuming that the psychopomps know about GC, know Surma, know that Surma was a medium and descended from a fire elemental, and knew what happens when a part-elemental has a child. We know that the psychopomps know about Surma, that she was a medium and descended from a fire elemental, that she had worked with psychopomps before having Annie weakened her too much, and what would happen when she had a child. And we know that they know about GC because there were at least four visits where Annie interacted with them, prior to Divine. And multiple deaths, including the loss of a psychopomp, to Jeanne. Plus it's quite likely that some past teachers, staff, etc. have died there prior to Annie's arrival. What we don't know is whether the things Anthony was talking to are actually psychopomps. (I'm guessing not. But that wouldn't be a strong indication that they wouldn't know about the line of mortal-elemental crossbreeds.)
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Post by Sky Schemer on Aug 20, 2015 5:08:00 GMT
Coyote is a god. So right off the bat there is a problem with trying to apply human values to him. That has never been a problem that any culture has had applying moral values to the divine. That doesn't mean it's reasonable. Applying human values to anything that isn't human does not make sense. Just because it's sentient that doesn't mean it thinks like a human does. Consider the fairies as a prime example. Kat and Annie certainly find Red's behavior reprehensible, but it's clear that the other fairies themselves do not see it this way. In fact, Tom has come right out and said in his commentary that their priorities do not match ours. Would you attempt to apply human values to them? If so, how far are you going to take that? Would you apply them to the psychopomps? Animals in the forest? Attempting to map human values onto non-human beings is nonsensical. That doesn't mean you have to like the characters or agree with their actions, but moral judgement implies that there is a shared value system. Jones is not skeptical of it at all. She says Coyote is not lying when he says he put the stars in the sky, and the same goes for other powerful beings. What she is saying is that these claims present a paradox, that he existed before he was created. She does not know whether or not his theory is true, and makes no judgements. She does however see dangerous consequences of it being possible. That does imply that she sees it as a viable theory. Ysengrin's anger at Coyote's theory is not something driven by facts or evidence that I can see. He simply does not believe it, and it proves nothing. You are clearly having a much more personal reaction to all of this than I was expecting. It was not my intent to rub you the wrong way here.
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Post by CoyoteReborn on Aug 20, 2015 7:06:29 GMT
( Sky Schemer, darththulhu, dd500, Refugee, et al.) Hey, maybe you just don't UNDERSTAND Coyote! You shouldn't be so quick to harshly judge a character! Why, maybe if we understood the situation more, we'd feel terrible for thinking bad things about Coyote! Of course you foolish mortals don't understand Me. Your ape-minds would burn out from the revelation. But I have made the effort to explain, just for your sake. More than once, actually. Of course I've done awful things. When I howl at the moon in sorrow, some nights I might even regret them. When I feel this rare guilt, it cuts far deeper than my sadness about merely misplacing the stars. I weep bitter tears. And yet, I still awake the next morning and do such acts again with abandon. Why, you may ask? Well, you could say I'm addicted to My own pleasure, even (and especially!) when others are harmed. This would be true. You could say I'm a borderline sociopath, and I value My own entertainment above others' safety. This would not be false. But perhaps the most honest answer is that I am made this way, and I have never had any say in the matter. When your careless minds first spun Me from the whole cloth of dream, I never had a choice in what I was. When I was seen and shaped by the eyes of Man, I was always to blame for the terrible caprice of the fates. I am a creature of dream, and some dreams are nightmares. I do not have that curse and blessing of mortals, to choose. I am that I am. I am about as evil as a great storm - a force of nature, with all its careless and destructive power. Just more...personal and chatty. And sexier, as you can clearly see. *preening, and also continued strutting*I have caused great harm. I can't deny that, for I am the Coyote, god of tricksters, and Coyote is no liar. I am certainly not Good, not by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, I'm a total jackass, and pretty unrepentant about it. But I am also not just simply malicious at heart, and the reality is far more nuanced than simply pointing at Me and shouting "Evil!". And even I think Tony's out of line with his treatment of My Fire-Head Girl. Quite a ringing endorsement of her dear father, no?
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Post by philman on Aug 20, 2015 8:07:17 GMT
Eww, I hope the bonetenna was good for only one call. If it became an artifact to be used over and over again...that's unsettling. Anthony should know how to make another even though the Mk. 1 got fried. Even if he missed the importance of it being a surgeon's hand they might by chance get a dead murderer's (which I think is more traditional) And how many murderers are hanging around the court? Perhaps trapped inside a stuffed toy conveniently sitting on Tony's desk...
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Post by snipertom on Aug 20, 2015 13:18:54 GMT
"ohhhh... I accidentally put my daughter into a coma by recklessly pursuing my wife and trying to bring her back from the dead? haha"
THEMS THE BREAKS I GUESS HAHA
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Post by aline on Aug 20, 2015 13:24:24 GMT
We're assuming that the psychopomps know about GC, know Surma, know that Surma was a medium and descended from a fire elemental, and knew what happens when a part-elemental has a child. We know that the psychopomps know about Surma, that she was a medium and descended from a fire elemental, that she had worked with psychopomps before having Annie weakened her too much, and what would happen when she had a child. And we know that they know about GC because there were at least four visits where Annie interacted with them, prior to Divine. And multiple deaths, including the loss of a psychopomp, to Jeanne. Plus it's quite likely that some past teachers, staff, etc. have died there prior to Annie's arrival. What we don't know is whether the things Anthony was talking to are actually psychopomps. (I'm guessing not. But that wouldn't be a strong indication that they wouldn't know about the line of mortal-elemental crossbreeds.) I think that's very unlike psychopomps to do something like that. They have always been displayed as non malicious and as beings who try to avoid as much as possible interacting with the world of the living. Psychopomps would rather stay away from obsessed men who want to talk to their dead wife. Besides, they have their own reasons to want to protect Antimony. However, the etheric world is full of parasites that tell half-truth in order to eat up the fools that listen to them. We've seen some in the forest. Someone who looks hard enough for a miracle will find them sooner or later.
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Post by jombra on Aug 20, 2015 16:02:52 GMT
What in the world would these creatures gain out of manipulating him? But why the trick? What was the purpose of the etherics in so cruelly hoaxing Anthony? I wonder if they were really tricking him, or if he just felt tricked? He clearly hasn't taken his wife's etheric side seriously, so it's not like he said to them "please resurrect my wife, but be careful of my daughter who shares a soul with her". He asked for his wife's spirit, they gave him his wife's spirit. And he was the one who built the tool and reached out to her, so it's not like they went looking for her and said "hey, this spirit is in a girl, let's rip it out of her". If they do have some kind of diabolical purpose for Annie, I'm predicting that it's too late for Tony to stop them and it's a really really good thing Zimmy showed up. I really want to see this from Tony's POV. Also there's debate going on about whether Surma = Annie, but Annie herself is kinda split in two right now. Surma may not = Annie, but that fire elemental part of Annie might be a different story. Personally I think the fire elemental part is the ageless part that's always been there, but not really connected enough -until now- to really know what's going on. Kept too far inside Surma to care about Anthony the way Surma does, but really cares about her vessel regardless of who it is so is currently pissed that someone's messing with it. She's out and about now long enough to start developing separate opinions from Annie, at least. Probably a direct result of what Tony did back in Divine, which is unusual enough that it's never happened before. Incidentally, I wonder how Surma's father took this? Clearly not as bad as Anthony.
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Sadie
Full Member
I eat food and sleep in a horizontal position.
Posts: 146
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Post by Sadie on Aug 20, 2015 16:06:03 GMT
COYOTE: represents a fantastical idea, funny, terrible (in all senses of the word), horrifying, and above all DISTANT. There's a good chance the majority of forum users don't have their daily lives impacted by a living person who embodies all that is Coyote. This isn't to say everyone or that there aren't users who have to deal with people with some Coyote's of worst traits, but most.
ANTHONY CARVER: represents a realistic idea, familiar, hurtful, controversial, and above all PRESENT. The majority of forum users have had a parent or parent-substitutes in their lives, and many are parents themselves. This goes a long way to explaining both the strong rejection and defense of him. An emotionally closed-off father/parental figure hits a lot of us in a very personal spot. A laughing, mercurial god-figure with an amicable relationship with the main character and off-screen murders can't even begin to compare.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 20, 2015 16:24:18 GMT
Anthony should know how to make another even though the Mk. 1 got fried. Even if he missed the importance of it being a surgeon's hand they might by chance get a dead murderer's (which I think is more traditional) And how many murderers are hanging around the court? Perhaps trapped inside a stuffed toy conveniently sitting on Tony's desk... I don't believe they have capital punishment in the UK but cadavers happen in the practice of law enforcement sometimes; since the Court has a low population I assume they import their stiffs...
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Post by TBeholder on Aug 20, 2015 16:50:13 GMT
Consider the cost of this attempt. Even if someone knew how to make the antennae it's unlikely they would want to do it or even recommend it. Well, not everyone is an Edgelord and miniaturization is a thing. "You can use two bits of wood and an egg..." Which makes me wonder if he just kept ignoring people who told him 'no' until he found someone (things?) who told him what he wanted to hear. Seems to be his case. For the evilulz? Maybe for the bonetenna. I'm doubting he took it with him. They may have a purpose for it.[...] the disembodied hand might act as a direct bonetenna to Tony. Maybe, it does more than receive... Like I posted before, if it isn't Coyote then we probably won't ever know why (unless the hand shows up again or something). I'm with ctso74 on this - that thing probably still exists somewhere and at least potentially could be used at least to reach any of the involved entities, and who knows what else. Given what happened the first time it was used, for Annie retrieving it is simply a matter of self-preservation. The tricky question here is what to do with it later - and specifically whether it will be safer or not to pack the thing in a stainless steel box and drop off the Court's side of the bridge. There are too many possible reasons. Stacking onto the ones from before, if he'd been babbling on about how he'd do anything then they might have been "economical with the truth" to [...] Maybe he was bothering them and they encouraged him onto a very self-destructive path just to make him shut up and go away Plausible, especially given his crazy look. Then there's how the Court comes into this. Back on page 1550 Tony said, "Like a fool I thought I could escape the Court's eye." So the Court knows something about what Tony was doing when he went Walkabout. Non sequitur. If he'd break communication at all in the first place when he started... Tony was on a mission from the Court, visiting some places (even if he used it as a pretext to his own quest and wandered off the path now and then). Which is likely to include places found by someone before him on a related mission. The chance that he won't eventually run into one of the Court's contacts on such a path is infinitesimal. Rather than encountering a surly-but-dutiful librarian like Annie & Kat he ended up in the RotD's equivalent of a back-alley, where he stumbled upon a bunch of hardcases who decided to torture him. Why "decided to torture him"? They were promoting RotD cause... probably in accordance with the given mortal's express wishes, at that.
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Post by sherni on Aug 20, 2015 18:17:20 GMT
Lots of angry people in this thread? I could be wrong, but have there actually been folks saying things along the lines of 'Anthony is evil incarnate/worst person ever/and so on' here and in the threads for the last few pages (sarcasm excepted)? The discussions there seemed to be pretty reasonable to me. The general consensus seems to be that his behaviour towards Annie is unnecessarily harsh, and his actions very, very unwise and selfish. Veering off to a slightly different topic here, but according to the esteemed author, Coyote could have cured Surma. Which might mean that it is do-able. Maybe not with human methods, but with etheric ones? But Surma (as far as we know) made no attempt to pursue any etheric methods to save herself. Looking at the connection between them in this page, it occurred to me that maybe because she did not want to take the chance that it would harm her daughter?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2015 18:23:33 GMT
This is clearly a person who has hit rock bottom. How exactly that lead to him being so hard on Annie is unclear, but he's clearly very brittle mentally right now.
Why the court would let an obviously unstable person with new visible injuries become an instructor and direct the instruction of a student so directly is a little strange but the Court has often seemed both capricious and cruel in the past, so not really a surprise there.
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Post by kelantar on Aug 20, 2015 18:26:36 GMT
Sure, he's not a good father but 1) he's a fictional character and 2) Tom will develop Tony and the story as he sees fit. If we didn't talk about things for those two reasons, there would be no point in having a forum. Don't forget what Tom said that one time. We are supposed to feel the way we feel about characters. That's what makes it a good story. THE FEELS. i think it's pretty fair to judge a character harshly when they do things that make them worthy of being judged harshly This. I do believe Tony's had it rough, and, absent of, I dunno, the whole rest of the comic, I would feel sympathy for him if I had only read the last few pages. But I am going to continue to feel that being a dick to a young girl, especially a young girl who is your daughter, is what one would call a dick move. He's kind of like Snape in that regard. Sure he wasn't evil, but that doesn't mean that he should have been such a dick to so many people. Who the hell do you think you are to decide that solitary motivations that are at odds with what the story has presented regarding the nature of life and death are some kinds of claims to be a god. Because every scientist that attempts to stall certain death, and every surgeon that feels that their patient's life rests on their hands is apparently deluding themselves into believing they're actually GODS. Keeping a person from dying is one thing. Bring back a person who is already dead is another. Given that a few dozen people have actively speculated that this cluster of pseudo-pomps may (or may not be) doing Coyote's Work, people quite reasonably keep bringing him up. 2) Given that Coyote himself may actually be In This Flashback Scene, people quite reasonably keep bringing him up. 3) Given the amen-choir endlessly bringing up how Anthony Carver quite obviously deserves to be shamed as Gunnerkrigg Court's Worst Monster, regardless of the content of the present page or any prior ones, people quite reasonably keep bringing Coyote up (for the sake of comparison). People have "actively speculated" that Jones was a transgendered clone of Tony sent back in time, too. That's why there's a wild spec thread. People also said that Brinnie and Jones looked alike. That's another assumption that shouldn't be brought up as if it's fact. And if we're going to compare Anthony and Coyote, we also need to contrast them. Like the fact that one is a human father and the other is a trickster god. A couple points that I think are still unclear: whether Tony found psychopomps, or something else; and whether these beings, whoever they are, were actually attempting to trick him or not. Tony even says "I thought I'd found what I was looking for." I'm not sure whether that means he later realized that he hadn't found a way to bring Surma back, or that he hadn't found psychopomps in the first place. The question is, would this "cure" be like his "cure" for Ysengrin? AKA screwing with her head? Theoretically, removing the fire elemental part of her (and that part of Annie) would mean that she is "cured," but from what I've seen, it seems that the elemental is an integral part of them. Annie has "removed" her elemental side, and we've seen how it has affected her personality. One might say it's not worth it to remove that part, or that without it, she's an entirely different person, in a way.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 20, 2015 18:26:51 GMT
ccording to the esteemed author, Coyote could have cured Surma. Which might mean that it is do-able. Maybe not with human methods, but with etheric ones? But Surma (as far as we know) made no attempt to pursue any etheric methods to save herself. Looking at the connection between them in this page, it occurred to me that maybe because she did not want to take the chance that it would harm her daughter? The logical way that Coyote could have done that would have been to make Surma human and free the fire to be just a fire elemental, thus ending the line. But even in doing that there would have to be someone's life-story sacrificed, methinks. And also then there would be no comic.
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