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Post by November on Aug 19, 2015 8:03:53 GMT
Grr fictional people doing fictional things makes me angry
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Post by Refugee on Aug 19, 2015 8:04:27 GMT
Christ dude, he only found out that resurrecting his dead wife would harm his daughter AFTER the fact. Don't crucify the man. Look at what he's given up, and what he almost unknowingly gave up. One would think the "resurrecting his dead wife" bit would be enough to give any even relatively sane person pause, well before finding out whether or not doing so would harm anyone, let alone his daughter. Tony's seems to be a single-minded, driven personality that's been pushed right over the edge and then hauled back up just so it can be pushed over again. He needs help in the worst sort of way. "Resurrecting the dead", at least in folklore, almost always leads to catastrophe. That's why we have folklore, to warn us against the hubris that inspires such attempts. Anthony does need help, but he has to acknowledge he needs it; in other words, he has to confess to the person he injured, and beg forgiveness. Since Annie's the person he injured, she's the one he has to beg forgiveness from. And once forgiven, he has to make amends. He cannot then go on trying to save Annie. He has to commit himself to being her Father, nothing more, nothing less. === We've spoken much of pride here, and I've been pretty harsh on Anthony in regards to his treatment of Annie. But I'm inspired to wonder if, perhaps, he recognizes his own pride in her actions, and thinks that she seriously needs to be taken down to keep her from following in his path. If so, I'll feel very much better about the man.
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Post by keef on Aug 19, 2015 8:10:47 GMT
Annie looks flabbergasted, the Fire is raging again; it will jump out of the blinker any minute now... (well maybe not likely, but it would be a nice scene)
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Post by antiyonder on Aug 19, 2015 8:12:42 GMT
To antiyonder: Anthony lost his wife because Surma's life was not his to save. No action he might have taken, that we know of, would have saved her, other than refusing to have a child with her. Agreed. I'm just saying that in addition to that, Anthony was 100% certain that he'd be able to defy the rules. Not merely being hopeful, but lacking a shred of doubt. Had he even been open to the possibility of failure, he'd likely have requested having no child or at least maybe pursue adoption if they both wanted to be parents. Oh yes, in a world where everything from ghost dogs to egyptian figureheads exist to guide souls into the afterlife, which is so vaguely explained yet hinted as being a very real phenomena, it's quite insane to even consider the prospect of contacting the dead again. Absolute silliness in every respect, despite the fact that his own daughter frequently offered cordial company to the undead. A world which still has rules and limitations despite how much is possible. Even if there was a way to let Surma live, while having a daughter, it will likely be harder than anyone imagines. Annie tends to display tendencies to make her easier to respect. Like on occasions such as where she worked to make amends towards Reynard after the chapter where she tore him apart verbally. Haven't seen any cases like that with Tony. I have no opinion on Coyote, but I imagine others aren't as hard on him, because arguably he's not the kind of character meant to be liked or respected in the same way one would feel towards friends/family. Ultimately, Anthony seems like the kind of character who will be someone we respect, but the reasons to do so are harder to find than it is for other characters. Worst I believe as far as Anthony is concerned is that he's vain, plus selfish, only there's really no reason to like or find him appealing. But go on. Point out directly where I said he is malicious. And I'll concede that admitting he's failed is a good first step. But we still need to see him making right with Annie, and his coldness towards her shows that he isn't quite in that place yet.
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Post by Nepycros on Aug 19, 2015 8:17:00 GMT
Oh yes, in a world where everything from ghost dogs to egyptian figureheads exist to guide souls into the afterlife, which is so vaguely explained yet hinted as being a very real phenomena, it's quite insane to even consider the prospect of contacting the dead again. Absolute silliness in every respect, despite the fact that his own daughter frequently offered cordial company to the undead. A world which still has rules and limitations despite how much is possible. Even if there was a way to let Surma live, while having a daughter, it will likely be harder than anyone imagines. Annie tends to display tendencies to make her easier to respect. Like on occasions such as where she worked to make amends towards Reynard after the chapter where she tore him apart verbally. Haven't seen any cases like that with Tony. Worst I believe as far as Anthony is concerned is that he's vain, plus selfish, only there's really no reason to like or find him appealing. But go on. Point out directly where I said he is malicious. And I'll concede that admitting he's failed is a good first step. But we still need to see him making right with Annie, and his coldness towards her shows that he isn't quite in that place yet. You make strong points. My head-on statement that a certain sect of the forum has claimed maliciousness is certainly without immediate sources (nor did I claim individual persons such as you were responsible), and I retract it. I apologize, I've been stirred up by the flagrant hate spewed his way. His character does depend on how he handles the next few interactions with Donovan and Annie. I will gladly admit that. He has a lot to own up to, and it is too early to judge him based on what hasn't yet happened. I won't force the issue anymore than I have, except for one final statement: He was more than just a Father to Annie. He was also a husband to Surma, and with that comes a great deal of emotional investment. People will assume selfishness and vanity, but to excuse love from the mix of motivations is folly.
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Post by rafk on Aug 19, 2015 8:30:03 GMT
This makes his behaviour on returning to the Court even less explicable. He knows he hurt Annie, so he treats her like crap on returning to the Court.
Dude is not just seriously disturbed and needing help, Donny needs to get him in the van with people in white coats ASAP before he can do more damage.
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Post by Refugee on Aug 19, 2015 8:31:05 GMT
To antiyonder: Anthony lost his wife because Surma's life was not his to save. No action he might have taken, that we know of, would have saved her, other than refusing to have a child with her. To nepycros: Self-hatred over something you cannot change is a twisted, highly sinful form of pride. If Anthony has in fact treated Annie so badly out of guilt, then his infallible bomb-diggity self image is indeed toxic. No less toxic than any other character who brazenly attempts to fight against the flow of the world, often unknowingly putting others at risk. Please note, I said Anthony's self-hatred was sinful, not his attempt to speak with Surma again. Although as I said elsewhere, that is not something to be undertaken lightly, and Anthony's motives and methods seem highly suspect to me. Annie, on more than one occasion, has endangered herself and her friends with little more than a shrug, and simply because everything turned out alright in the end she's praised as being a motivated character. We're not in disagreement there: Jones once told Annie that she put many people at risk when, in emotional turmoil over her Mother's deception of Renard, she ran off into the forest. Could it be that her little escapade was when the entities that attacked Anthony gained enough leverage to do so? And I've often, in the discussion of the current story arc, criticized Annie's high-handedness, in the course of defending at least some of Anthony's treatment of her. When Tony, pushed with a devotion that defines him as a character, ends up stumbling and failing, he's heralded as the single most vilified being in GK, far worse than even Coyote in his prime act of dickishness. He's gotten his reputation for his treatment of Annie, not for his attempt to speak with Surma again. I must admit, though, that he is not very likeable, and he has got a singularly bad case of Oneitis, which is blinding him to Surma's faults, and has led him to doing things that have damaged himself and his daughter. However, not even at this point am I willing to concede that he is guilty of child abuse. He's just not a very good father.
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Post by Refugee on Aug 19, 2015 8:36:22 GMT
To antiyonder: Anthony lost his wife because Surma's life was not his to save. No action he might have taken, that we know of, would have saved her, other than refusing to have a child with her. Agreed. I'm just saying that in addition to that, Anthony was 100% certain that he'd be able to defy the rules. Not merely being hopeful, but lacking a shred of doubt. Had he even been open to the possibility of failure, he'd likely have requested having no child or at least maybe pursue adoption if they both wanted to be parents. Or, more to the point, he might have honestly investigated what was going on, to understand the etherium and etheric beings more than he seems to have. He went went off half-cocked because his pride and his worship of Surma blinded him enough that he forgot primum non nocere.
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Post by antiyonder on Aug 19, 2015 9:09:02 GMT
You make strong points. My head-on statement that a certain sect of the forum has claimed maliciousness is certainly without immediate sources (nor did I claim individual persons such as you were responsible), and I retract it. I apologize, I've been stirred up by the flagrant hate spewed his way. I appreciate it. In all honesty, I suppose I have to reconsider my own expectations as they factor into my current stance. Namely the big reveal. As much as I'm eager to roast him (figuratively), it never crossed my mind that he is simply evil and feeding on Annie's upset emotions. But just the same, lacking the intent to be evil or malicious doesn't guarantee likability without a reason to overlook his questionable choices. That comes to the hows and whys of his choices. Now patience is definitely a virtue, but well... As I see it, Tom has likely been trying to see how angry and disliking we (or at least a portion of the reader base) can possibly be towards Anthony. Just giving more and more reasons to feel so. As such, I figured that's why the revelation on his motives were withheld this long. Because it was likely that the story would paint him in a more flattering light, thus it would presumably lessen critics/haters ability to have (much) disdain towards Anthony. As it is now, it seems the best we get at least to me is a reason to feel some sympathy and that the reveal could have happened sooner with no consequence. Though I concede that there's still some of the chapter left to change things, but ultimately it seems like I might have to wait for his to take more just methods to his goals. And once forgiven, he has to make amends. He cannot then go on trying to save Annie. He has to commit himself to being her Father, nothing more, nothing less. I don't know. Agreed on committing to being her father, but I would say at best that if he's going to continue trying to save Annie, he just needs to: A. Keep in mind that the ends do not always justify the means. B. Be on the level with Annie since what he's doing concerns her, and not being so secretive. C. Be more open to the possibility of his decisions having a good chance of failure.
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Post by lemmingatk on Aug 19, 2015 9:25:25 GMT
He seems so amused about being tricked into doing something at Annie's expense. No signs of regret, just a grin at the whole thing. Unless the next page has him drunkenly breaking down about it in front of Donny (or something at least), Tony is still a lost cause.
He's just way too happy in his exposition, booze or not.
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Post by arf on Aug 19, 2015 9:38:35 GMT
Oh, the slightly queasy look on Annie's face as she's absorbing all this. (Fair enough, it is pretty gruesome!) Elemental is also looking peeved. I suppose that would be because it was what Tony was calling up.
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Post by gwydion on Aug 19, 2015 9:40:02 GMT
Oh this does not bode well.
These things lead to existential crisis, which leads to anger, which may lead to fire.
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Post by Refugee on Aug 19, 2015 9:42:41 GMT
And once forgiven, he has to make amends. He cannot then go on trying to save Annie. He has to commit himself to being her Father, nothing more, nothing less. I don't know. Agreed on committing to being her father, but I would say at best that if he's going to continue trying to save Annie, he just needs to: A. Keep in mind that the ends do not always justify the means. B. Be on the level with Annie since what he's doing concerns her, and not being so secretive. C. Be more open to the possibility of his decisions having a good chance of failure. Of course, by "Save Annie", I meant, "keep her from dying as Surma did after Annie and Jack have a child and passes on her elemental". In that context, I agree with all your points, but would gather them all together and say, "Don't try to save her from herself without enlisting her cooperation." He still has a role to play as Annie's Father; she is not yet an adult, and very much needs a steadying, er, hand. But he cannot be a good Father without being more open with her. The older she gets, the more he will need her consent, even cooperation. And she might not give him that. In which case, agonizing as it may be, he has to leave her alone, and let her live her own life, and die her own death. [Well, OK, maybe Jack wouldn't be the best candidate. Actually...hm...child of an elemental and whatever the hell Reynard is...wonder what SHE would be like?]
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Post by arf on Aug 19, 2015 9:44:21 GMT
He seems so amused about being tricked into doing something at Annie's expense. No signs of regret, just a grin at the whole thing. Unless the next page has him drunkenly breaking down about it in front of Donny (or something at least), Tony is still a lost cause. He's just way too happy in his exposition, booze or not. Bear with it, for now. Did you ever see the Star Trek episode where Picard is coming to terms with the consequences of his assimilation into the Borg? The scene where he breaks down in front of his brother (laughter that turns to broken sobs) is one of the strongest ones in the entire series. Also, cherries.
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Post by Refugee on Aug 19, 2015 9:51:32 GMT
He seems so amused about being tricked into doing something at Annie's expense. I think this counts as self-mockery. He can't allow any greater expression, because he likely feels that if he did, he'd have to break his glass and cut his throat with the shards. And he can't do that, because then he'd have to face the psychopomps, or possibly the false ones that did this to him.
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Post by Refugee on Aug 19, 2015 10:03:13 GMT
Grr fictional people doing fictional things makes me angry Gods, I know, right? I still want to beat the snot out of Spock for not staying properly dead. Well, Spock, or his psychopomps.
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Post by Nepycros on Aug 19, 2015 10:04:10 GMT
He seems so amused about being tricked into doing something at Annie's expense. No signs of regret, just a grin at the whole thing. Unless the next page has him drunkenly breaking down about it in front of Donny (or something at least), Tony is still a lost cause. He's just way too happy in his exposition, booze or not. Bear with it, for now. Did you ever see the Star Trek episode where Picard is coming to terms with the consequences of his assimilation into the Borg? The scene where he breaks down in front of his brother (laughter that turns to broken sobs) is one of the strongest ones in the entire series. Also, cherries. Ever noticed how so many people overanalyze these moments and then conclude, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that it only adds to Tony being an emotionless machine of evildom?
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Post by sherni on Aug 19, 2015 10:25:42 GMT
Oh dear. The Annies are not looking thrilled. They might interpret his laughter as a sign of him not really caring. To me it looks more like bitter, semi-hysterical self-mockery. Still, he had better show some signs of remorse, and quick!
As much as I sympathise with him, I can't help but feel repulsed by him and what he did. Yes, he lost his wife. He went to find a way to communicate with her. And that would have been completely understandable if he hadn't abandoned his daughter in the process! And it is abandonment. He left her at a boarding school and just broke off all contact. She had just lost her mother. She needed him. She would have understood how much he missed Surma, because she felt the same way. And he just left... She could have fallen ill, she could have died and he wouldn't have been there for her... And now he's back, but with the amount of distress he is causing her, it might have been better if he hadn't returned at all.
I wonder what exactly those creatures were up to. They obviously aren't a particularly savoury lot. Did they trick him because they wanted something from him or Surma? Or just because they could? Or was it not a trick at all (in their eyes)? Maybe they really thought they were giving him what he wanted. Eldritch Abominations that they are, they might not have any idea that harming a daughter to get the mother back is not an acceptable solution. However did Anthony end up with them? Is it because no one else could (or would) help him? Sort of like turning to the black market when the legitimate shops don't cut it? Except this is worse than most black markets. Consider the cost of this attempt. Even if someone knew how to make the antennae it's unlikely they would want to do it or even recommend it. Which makes me wonder if he just kept ignoring people who told him 'no' until he found someone (things?) who told him what he wanted to hear.
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Post by speedwell on Aug 19, 2015 10:28:21 GMT
....if he just kept ignoring people who told him 'no' until he found someone (things?) who told him what he wanted to hear. That does seem to be the universal motivation behind the actions of people in stories in which they sell their souls to the Devil, doesn't it. We can also see that the people in those stories are not normally very nice people to start with.
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Post by stef1987 on Aug 19, 2015 10:42:56 GMT
Annie looks flabbergasted, the Fire is raging again; it will jump out of the blinker any minute now... (well maybe not likely, but it would be a nice scene) I really don't know how to interpret their facial expressions. I mean, it seems like they're mad at her father, but it makes no sense since he just said he didn't know it would harm her
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Post by sleepcircle on Aug 19, 2015 11:09:32 GMT
Is "was taken ill" grammarishly correct? I've never heard it said like that before. yeah it's correct--don't think it's used in america though. it's like how you guys don't say fortnight, central reservation, boiled sweet, or 'threw a wobbler'
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Post by lemmingatk on Aug 19, 2015 11:13:50 GMT
Ever noticed how so many people overanalyze these moments and then conclude, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that it only adds to Tony being an emotionless machine of evildom? Doing whatever it takes, no matter who you hurt or what body parts you have to lop off, to accomplish something as selfish as bringing one person back to life because you miss them. In what narrative has that ever not had negative impacts? And I never said he was emotionless. Or a machine. I didn't even say he was evil. He is weak and *nearly* irredeemable. You may be over-analyzing peoples' opinions.
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Post by matoyak on Aug 19, 2015 11:56:11 GMT
Is "was taken ill" grammarishly correct? I've never heard it said like that before. yeah it's correct--don't think it's used in america though. it's like how you guys don't say fortnight, central reservation, boiled sweet, or 'threw a wobbler' I've heard "Was taken ill" a fair bit from older folks in my area. (South Central Texas). As for the comic... I'mma wait and see if we get any more info on what that smile means in panel 3.
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Post by todd on Aug 19, 2015 12:49:06 GMT
Was there any purpose, beyond their own amusement? Amusement would be a likely motive; myth and legend contain enough examples of capricious gods or other superhuman beings who engaged in such meddling just for entertainment. Coyote definitely shows a lot of that.
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Post by kelantar on Aug 19, 2015 13:06:38 GMT
What in the world would these creatures gain out of manipulating him? But why the trick? What was the purpose of the etherics in so cruelly hoaxing Anthony? I wonder if they were really tricking him, or if he just felt tricked? He clearly hasn't taken his wife's etheric side seriously, so it's not like he said to them "please resurrect my wife, but be careful of my daughter who shares a soul with her". He asked for his wife's spirit, they gave him his wife's spirit. And he was the one who built the tool and reached out to her, so it's not like they went looking for her and said "hey, this spirit is in a girl, let's rip it out of her". What kind of humility do you prescribe to someone who blames himself for the death of his significant other? Well that's kinda the thing. He was so convinced he could do things his way and cure her magical ailment through medical means, he's ignoring the reality of it. And in this flashback he's again convinced that he can figure it out again with no help, despite having access to a facility (the Court) that kinda specializes in this sort of thing.
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Post by elcheeso on Aug 19, 2015 13:13:25 GMT
He seems so amused about being tricked into doing something at Annie's expense. No signs of regret, just a grin at the whole thing. Unless the next page has him drunkenly breaking down about it in front of Donny (or something at least), Tony is still a lost cause. He's just way too happy in his exposition, booze or not. I don't really see where you're getting this from. Like... sure, technically he's laughing about it, but that expression is not one of good humour about the situation. The face in the first panel + third panel eyebrows don't say "haha isn't it so funny that I hurt my daughter", they (pretty obviously, imo) say that he's doing the self-conscious/self-loathing or embarrassed laugh thing. Sort of like how someone might laugh at an offensive joke without actually finding it funny because it's embarrassing or just straight up trying to diffuse the tension of hearing it... except in this case, it's self directed. I'd wager that he's trying to do the latter. Either way, it seems pretty distinctly a 'this isn't funny' laugh. Edit: It's also worth mentioning that he laughed in the same sort of way when describing the antenna of blood and bone. I have some serious doubts about him thinking losing his hand to his own stupidity was legitimately funny, and it's most likely the same thing here. Tension diffusing when trying to talk about a seriously fucked up subject.
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Post by darththulhu on Aug 19, 2015 13:17:31 GMT
I'm still interested into the answer to the Twenty Million NuYen Question: Did He Actually Reach Surma?
Not Annie. Not "the Fire Inside". SURMA
Because the Bone-tenna in Divine pierces right through the chest of Annie's dream-body ... and it ALSO pierces right through the chest of the (pinned) Fire Inside ...
Yes, yes, according to the Psychopomps people vanish into the Ether, but Surma very explicitly didn't get the normal treatment there, and for all the blather about "there was nothing for the psychopomps to take" kiddo-Annie nonetheless still escorted Something to Somewhere when she escorted Surma.
So for all that these half-truth half-dead Jerkholes (who may or may not be actual psychopomps) clearly don't mind lying by omission, there remains the very live question of whether or not their little Nightmare Schematic created a device that can actually talk to Surma. (Again: Not Annie. Not "the Fire Inside") Because if this Thing has actually somehow reached the years-lost SURMA, that is a dang sight better (and worse) than anything Annie has ever imagined.
And if it has reached Surma ... and she is able to talk ... I'm kinda interested in what her last words are going to be, y'know?
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Post by puntino on Aug 19, 2015 13:25:08 GMT
I find it interesting that he looks extremely saddened when the topic regards Surma, but then swiftly changes to a playful mood when the topic is Antimony, even if it includes harming her to the point of inducing a coma.
I still don't get his feelings for her, and would love to do so.
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Post by lordofpotatoes on Aug 19, 2015 13:31:19 GMT
I'm pretty sure that when Zimmy punched him, it was in the form of Surma punching him, since Zimmy borrowed the scar when she did that, and SUrma had the scar on that page. So he thinks Antimony punched him.
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elebenty
Junior Member
Better than bubble wrap.
Posts: 83
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Post by elebenty on Aug 19, 2015 13:42:39 GMT
Is "was taken ill" grammarishly correct? I've never heard it said like that before. yeah it's correct--don't think it's used in america though. it's like how you guys don't say fortnight, central reservation, boiled sweet, or 'threw a wobbler' I've heard "Was taken ill" a fair bit from older folks in my area. (South Central Texas). As for the comic... I'mma wait and see if we get any more info on what that smile means in panel 3. It was common in the US Midwest, too. It's not something you hear much now, but people who lived through the Great Depression used it (my great-aunt and -uncle). More often the tense was different. It was usually "he took ill" as in the song "The Sow Took the Measles (and She Died in the Spring)."
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