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Post by fish on Aug 17, 2015 7:40:15 GMT
It would be super funny if Zimmy's punch registered as a punch from Surma. And by super funny I probably mean sad.
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Post by gwydion on Aug 17, 2015 7:50:38 GMT
Well i got to give him an A for at least effort and at least bringing something back from Dead. Anyway you try and deny that adorably insane face.
Everyone's already put that it's Annie's either elemental or inner fire showing as a representation of Surma. So I'll mention that the skull is looking awfully coyote-ish and that if he is planning something my hat goes off to him.
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Post by justcurious on Aug 17, 2015 7:51:08 GMT
So he is seeing Annie as Surma. And I won't be surprised if he sees Zimmy as Annie.
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Post by antiyonder on Aug 17, 2015 7:57:18 GMT
Speaking of jerks, I'm keeping an open mind as to Coyote's involvement in all this. (Current thought: not his style) While I can't say much on the in-universe stuff, I don't see how literally having Anthony mind controlled would work from a narrative standpoint. To build up so much tension throughout the story, especially the recent chapters, only to reveal Anthony is faultless means that any resolution and reconciliation. |
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Post by Señor Goose on Aug 17, 2015 7:57:08 GMT
This is probably about the time Zimmy comes in and lays him out eh?
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Post by gwydion on Aug 17, 2015 7:58:23 GMT
It would be super funny if Zimmy's punch registered as a punch from Surma. And by super funny I probably mean sad. Well yes it would be sad but still i would laugh, then pity him. Imagine if Surma goes to speak to him and it's Zimmy's lines that come out. |
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Post by SilverbackRon on Aug 17, 2015 7:58:12 GMT
does anyone know what any of the symbols mean? I assume it's an alchemy symbol. I'm no student of alchemy lore, and Tom tends to be a little loose on his symbology, but it looks very similar to an inverted version of arsenic:  Also: ...Anthony's symbol (my vote is for Arsenic or Magnesium, for the record, if he's represented by an element). 4 months ahead is a decent prediction, even on a small thing like this  (Source.)Color me impressed. Have a tin of freshly baked GunnerCookies! I see our Ungulate (probably-not-Coyote-but-slightly-possible) creature is back for another page. Who/whatever he is, I am assuming it is the ringleader of this "prank" or whatever they are up to. |
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Post by Señor Goose on Aug 17, 2015 7:59:30 GMT
Thats not Surma sadly, that's Annie's scar. To quote many a last man's word before their untimely demise: Oops. Sorry sweetheart, I thought you were your mother. |
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Post by Ashley Y on Aug 17, 2015 8:01:26 GMT
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Post by darththulhu on Aug 17, 2015 8:11:49 GMT
For fans of the Handsome Family, and True Detective's season 1 credits:
Across the dusty Cosmos
Her looming visage grows
Hidden in the fingers
Of my nightmare soul-remote
Her mane it twines up slowly
Bright as a boiling Sun
And where soulsteel has touched her skin
Her cheekbone runs with blood
...
"From the burning husk within my
Daughter's secret womb
I came gliding on the Wind
To bring her Father Doom"
"A strange corona haunted me
His looming fingers damned
I flew up to his deathly cave
Within his Ebon Hand"
...
When your last light flees her heart,
And the Ether Worlds unfold ...
"Guides of Death will turn ... to drag away your Soul"
AND RISE WE WILL FOREVER
ACROSS THE SCOURED LANDS
AND YOUR LIFE WILL BE MY EYES
AND MY NEED WILL BE MY HANDS
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Post by darththulhu on Aug 17, 2015 8:26:44 GMT
So Surma turns to him ... opens her eyes ... makes eye contact ... and with her kind of thick accent says, "Message from your little girl, mate!" ... and decks him hard across the mouth ...
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Post by artezzatrigger on Aug 17, 2015 8:34:38 GMT
It would be super funny if Zimmy's punch registered as a punch from Surma. And by super funny I probably mean sad. Well yes it would be sad but still i would laugh, then pity him. Imagine if Surma goes to speak to him and it's Zimmy's lines that come out.When you think about it, it really does sound like something she would have said in her younger days. |
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Post by legion on Aug 17, 2015 9:01:32 GMT
Actually, I think it's not an alchemy symbol, but the devanagari letter "ka": क
"ka" is also Japanese for "fire".
Edit: the other symbols in the page also look like various distorded devanagari letters, there's at least a "ja" ज and something which could be "ha" ह with a different stylization.
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quark
Full Member
Posts: 137
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Post by quark on Aug 17, 2015 9:29:02 GMT
Wow. That is heartbreaking and dark... and I don't think Donald can tell him what happened when he got punched by an eldritch abomination in a school girl's uniform, since nobody but Zimmy and Gamma know what transpired. He can say Annie got sick, though.
And it would be horrifying if Anthony blamed Annie for whatever happened afterwards - incredibly frustrating, too.
What's more is that he's still surprisingly ignorant; he wanted to solve the mystery of his wife's death, but apparently he never got as far as Annie.
There are a lot who knew that Annie took Surmas life force, her fire. Rey, the forest inhabitants... I don't know how much the court and his friends knew, since they just mentioned that they knew Surma would die, not why.
So, he never used the sources at his disposal - Rey still was imprisoned, and had lots of motivation to help anyone who would help Surma live (which he knew. Anja and Donald knew, too). Coyote mourned Surma, even though she tricked him. Anja is in touch with the ether... even she could have helped.
At this point, it's hard to say how he could ignore the ether and it's laws for so long, and how he could fall into whoever these people are.
I hope Annie gets the right message from all this, though.
For example, that she isn't to blame for whatever her father blames her for, that he did go away with non-evil intentions (no, trying to get Surma back is not selfless. On the contrary, it avoids admitting guilt and shame and failure for the sake of another who lives. If he'd come back successful, he'd never have to deal with all that)
That he is not half as talented in investigation and etheric studies as she is, and will need her help if he ever wants to know what happened (and so on)
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dreki
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Post by dreki on Aug 17, 2015 9:52:06 GMT
I find myself incredibly frustrated with Surma, actually. We've seen her do nothing to prepare Antimony for this. I realize she was hoping Tony would find a solution- but she still should've done something. Told Antimony what they were (or at least hinted at it), told her that her father was trying not just to save her mother's life but also Antimony's. This is something that Surma went through as well- why couldn't she help her daughter through it more? I don't like that she sent a young, naive child off to play with psychopomps and help them escort souls to the afterlife. And I don't know if Tony is just so overcome with grief that he's being stupid, or if Surma just never explained this to him. And if she didn't explain this to him: Again, I'm very frustrated. She was the medium to the forest, she played with Reynardine, she should have known what Annie knows. When she died, no psychopomps came because there was nothing left to take. Her being, her core, had been completely transferred to her daughter. Tony should have known that if he saw Surma- it meant he was messing with his daughter. He can't get Surma back without destroying Antimony. And, honestly, I do question if he cares. He spent so long obsessed with saving Surma that he never developed a bond with Antimony. I do think it's possible that he was taken in by some less-trustworthy beings who were interested in getting their hands on a fire elemental. In which case, his actions towards Annie are still despicable, and he better show some @#$@$@ emotion when he learns that he was tricked into attacking his own daughter! Trigger Warning: A topological hypothesis. I shudder to think of the situation that would cause someone to be triggered by that, heh... Triggers aren't just things that literally already happened to you. A lot of severe phobias, for example, are usually developed without prior experience. For example- my partner has a really serious problem with whales, huge visceral reaction to even just pictures of them. No logical reason, no past history, etc. Something as gory as that could be upsetting to a lot of people. Wow. That is heartbreaking and dark... and I don't think Donald can tell him what happened when he got punched by an eldritch abomination in a school girl's uniform, since nobody but Zimmy and Gamma know what transpired. He can say Annie got sick, though. And it would be horrifying if Anthony blamed Annie for whatever happened afterwards - incredibly frustrating, too. What's more is that he's still surprisingly ignorant; he wanted to solve the mystery of his wife's death, but apparently he never got as far as Annie. There are a lot who knew that Annie took Surmas life force, her fire. Rey, the forest inhabitants... I don't know how much the court and his friends knew, since they just mentioned that they knew Surma would die, not why. So, he never used the sources at his disposal - Rey still was imprisoned, and had lots of motivation to help anyone who would help Surma live (which he knew. Anja and Donald knew, too). Coyote mourned Surma, even though she tricked him. Anja is in touch with the ether... even she could have helped. At this point, it's hard to say how he could ignore the ether and it's laws for so long, and how he could fall into whoever these people are. I hope Annie gets the right message from all this, though. For example, that she isn't to blame for whatever her father blames her for, that he did go away with non-evil intentions (no, trying to get Surma back is not selfless. On the contrary, it avoids admitting guilt and shame and failure for the sake of another who lives. If he'd come back successful, he'd never have to deal with all that) That he is not half as talented in investigation and etheric studies as she is, and will need her help if he ever wants to know what happened (and so on) |
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Rea
Junior Member
Posts: 53
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Post by Rea on Aug 17, 2015 10:25:11 GMT
I noticed that in that page, Zimmy has Annie's scar and part-red hair. It could be Zimmy he's seeing as Surma, if not already then from some point on. |
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Post by sherni on Aug 17, 2015 11:11:58 GMT
Actually, I think it's not an alchemy symbol, but the devanagari letter "ka": क"ka" is also Japanese for "fire". Edit: the other symbols in the page also look like various distorded devanagari letters, there's at least a "ja" ज and something which could be "ha" ह with a different stylization. There is what looks like a "ta"- त right above Surma's head as well- below the um... hand. And that definitely looks like ह. Lots of ways to write them, after all. Did Anthony somehow wander to India, then? But what would the random letters mean? |
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Post by Elysium on Aug 17, 2015 11:19:59 GMT
So Anthony is a person so disturbigly obsessed by Surma that after her death, instead of provinding parenting fortheir daughter and work on a cure for HER (you know, since Surma was already), then he foolishly try so see her again, while fully knowing that this would inevitably affect Annie.
I though that Tony was a cold-hearted pragmatic, turns out he's just a tool.
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Post by Trillium on Aug 17, 2015 11:22:20 GMT
All sorts of symbols are flying around this vision. All I can think is, "Jesus, Tony!"
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mynie
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Post by mynie on Aug 17, 2015 11:51:11 GMT
I cannot help but be reminded of Fullmetal Alchemist.
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Post by pxc on Aug 17, 2015 13:18:17 GMT
So Anthony is a person so disturbigly obsessed by Surma that after her death, instead of provinding parenting fortheir daughter and work on a cure for HER (you know, since Surma was already), then he foolishly try so see her again, while fully knowing that this would inevitably affect Annie. I though that Tony was a cold-hearted pragmatic, turns out he's just a tool. Depending on what you mean by the bolded statement I disagree. If you mean he knew that attempting to contact Surma would put Annie in danger, incapacitate her, or really affect her in any way, then no I don't see that. Tony is acting out of desperation and ignorance and likely had no idea what he was doing. If you mean that going on this journey without preparing Annie in any way for his long-term absence (right after her mother died) would hurt her, and that that makes him a selfish prick, then yes. I agree with that. |
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Post by pxc on Aug 17, 2015 13:47:06 GMT
Seeing "Surma" w/Annie's cheek cut reminded me of the beginning of Divine - www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1027 Zimmy appears to be running away from something. Her hair is partially red, and the cheek cut is there on her face as well. She pulls it off and it looks like she'll escape, until Gamma stops her. Was the antenna also reaching out to Zimmy for some reason? Is that what she was running from? Did their time in Zimmingham, where she took on Annie's appearance, imprint some part of the fire elemental on Zimmy? I never really understood that part of the chapter. |
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Post by Purgatorius on Aug 17, 2015 13:48:55 GMT
She has the scar on her face (she has the scar on her face). Tom... Tony's right hand is gone, but the severed hand thing looks distinctly like a left hand! Something sinister is going on. It's probably a mirror image of the hand. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 17, 2015 13:58:01 GMT
If Antimony and the readers are lucky, yes. If not: Sorry sweetheart, I thought you were your mother. I find myself incredibly frustrated with Surma, actually. We've seen her do nothing to prepare Antimony for this. I realize she was hoping Tony would find a solution- but she still should've done something. Told Antimony what they were (or at least hinted at it), told her that her father was trying not just to save her mother's life but also Antimony's. This is something that Surma went through as well- why couldn't she help her daughter through it more? I don't like that she sent a young, naive child off to play with psychopomps and help them escort souls to the afterlife. And I don't know if Tony is just so overcome with grief that he's being stupid, or if Surma just never explained this to him. And if she didn't explain this to him: Again, I'm very frustrated. She was the medium to the forest, she played with Reynardine, she should have known what Annie knows. When she died, no psychopomps came because there was nothing left to take. Her being, her core, had been completely transferred to her daughter. Tony should have known that if he saw Surma- it meant he was messing with his daughter. He can't get Surma back without destroying Antimony. I'm sympathetic to criticism of Surma for not preparing Antimony more, though that was useful from a writing standpoint because Antimony became the gateway for the reader to experience Gunnerkrigg Court. Surma had a negative view of the Court and didn't want Anja and Don to see her last days, among other things, and prioritized those above what would help her daughter later in life. That may well have been selfish and shortsighted. But I think you partly respond to your first point in your second when you mention Surma's fire being transferred. Surma may have planned to do things "better" than her mother did but simply underestimated how debilitating that would be or how quickly that would set in. |
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Post by justcurious on Aug 17, 2015 13:58:51 GMT
If this is the Realm of the Dead remember how Kat saw it very differently to Annie and Mort. Perhaps people put their own conceptions on it. If so the nightmarish place that Tony was in fits his state of mind. Grated Kat as a probable developing goddess might have more ability than most to do this.
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Post by atteSmythe on Aug 17, 2015 14:03:07 GMT
Maybe it hasn't hit him yet. Heh, but someone's about to. As fascinating as this chapter is, I think the biggest relief for me must be the actual confirmation that the bonelasers are from Tony, so we can put that whole contention behind us. |
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Post by Purgatorius on Aug 17, 2015 14:08:46 GMT
Actually, I think it's not an alchemy symbol, but the devanagari letter "ka": क"ka" is also Japanese for "fire". Edit: the other symbols in the page also look like various distorded devanagari letters, there's at least a "ja" ज and something which could be "ha" ह with a different stylization. There is what looks like a "ta"- त right above Surma's head as well- below the um... hand. And that definitely looks like ह. Lots of ways to write them, after all. Did Anthony somehow wander to India, then? But what would the random letters mean? Could it be the strange creatures laughing? |
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quark
Full Member
Posts: 137
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Post by quark on Aug 17, 2015 14:22:55 GMT
Could it be the strange creatures laughing? This is the creepiest explanation, so I'm pretty sure it's correct. I was just thinking - the previous explanation for the bone laser surgery thing we're exploring now was that it was Anthony's misguided attempt at helping Annie, 'fixing' her condition. And that Zimmy interrupted the process, so we don't even know if it might have worked. With the information we have now, I think we've been giving Anthony too much credit. He just wanted to talk to Surma, no matter the cost, all that sacrifice and pain and hurt he caused to himself and others... not even to save his daughter. |
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Post by darlos9d on Aug 17, 2015 14:33:27 GMT
Could it be the strange creatures laughing? This is the creepiest explanation, so I'm pretty sure it's correct. I was just thinking - the previous explanation for the bone laser surgery thing we're exploring now was that it was Anthony's misguided attempt at helping Annie, 'fixing' her condition. And that Zimmy interrupted the process, so we don't even know if it might have worked. With the information we have now, I think we've been giving Anthony too much credit. He just wanted to talk to Surma, no matter the cost, all that sacrifice and pain and hurt he caused to himself and others... not even to save his daughter. Well, at this point, I don't even think he thought he was hurting anyone. Well, outside of "simple" parental abandonment, anyway. Sigh, I'm kinda hoping that this backstory isn't 100% "Anthony didn't actually know what he was doing guys!" Like, I'm hoping it DOESN'T go in the direction we're assuming: he "reads" the punch from Zimmy as an assault from Annie, and then just blames her for things. Instead I'm kinda hoping that after getting punched, he does indeed turn his attention towards "saving" Annie like he was trying to save Surma (as we were originally assuming anyway, when we thought the bone lasers was remote surgery) and he's just really freaking bad at it. I want him to have some actual intention behind his poor choices towards Annie, rather than everything just being some accidental side-effect. |
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Post by Trillium on Aug 17, 2015 15:43:16 GMT
This is the creepiest explanation, so I'm pretty sure it's correct. I was just thinking - the previous explanation for the bone laser surgery thing we're exploring now was that it was Anthony's misguided attempt at helping Annie, 'fixing' her condition. And that Zimmy interrupted the process, so we don't even know if it might have worked. With the information we have now, I think we've been giving Anthony too much credit. He just wanted to talk to Surma, no matter the cost, all that sacrifice and pain and hurt he caused to himself and others... not even to save his daughter. Well, at this point, I don't even think he thought he was hurting anyone. Well, outside of "simple" parental abandonment, anyway. Tony's abandonment of Annie might be from profound guilt and shame over not preventing Suma's death. It is no excuse but it is a reason. Tony was damaged before Suma died and now he is truly and deeply damaged in mind body and spirit.
Well this page is just awesome in so many ways: composition, color, symbolism everywhere and I think we are seeing Anthony’s heart’s desire; beautiful Surma. Part of this is real in that we are seeing what Tony saw during Divine. The bony hand was indeed holding the flame inside Annie, which is all that's left of Surma. Back then we saw what Zimmy saw. I wonder if Annie is seeing all this or only hearing her dad’s story while she sees him sit talking with Donald.
So Tony got tricked. His hand is gone. He is in part seeing what is left of Surma but it is now part of Annie. Having exhausted his medical and technological resources to save Suma he went in the other direction trying to find the Psychopomps. He may have been driven by guilt and grief. He plainly was not thinking clearly and his actions have led him to the brink of insanity where he would do almost anything. He cut off his freaking hand to see his dead wife. He has no clue that this is doing anything to Annie. We are going to have to wait to see what else we get this week from Tom.
As for Tony's current behavior toward Annie we have to wait and see what happens next. As usual we don’t know what is really going on. So the discussion/speculation continues.
And how about those guides Tony found? Aren’t they just the creepiest bunch of creeps?
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