|
Post by deuswyvern on Jun 11, 2015 0:36:05 GMT
On the subject of Annie not believing her dad has done anything wrong, it seems to me that the number one priority is getting her away from him and working from there. I'll go with that, it'll still be harder, though. It's a little shocking/worrisome that she hasn't made more progress in the two years that she basically had no contact with him... I have trouble believing that Annie can really think Anthony's actions are justified. She has had too many experiences away from him to truly believe that. I think that she's afraid of him. Specifically that he will abandon her if she displeases him in any way. I think she defends him because the alternative would be to admit that it is a bad relationship that she needs to get out of, and right now she is unable to consider that. I think your post is contradictory. You acknowledge that Annie cannot accept the relationship is unhealthy- but still put forth that she knows his actions are unjustified. Those two can't really co-exist. Acknowledging that Tony is unjustified would necessitate realizing that he's not being a good father to her, that the relationship is unhealthy. If she can't accept that- then she NEEDS to believe that his actions are justified. I agree that she's afraid he'll abandon her. He did once already- he went years with only a single, cryptic phone call to her. Of course she's afraid he'll disappear again. Because he's her father. And she loves him. And she needs to believe that he wants what is best for her and is trying to help her and has good intentions that justify his actions. Realizing that the abuse is unjustifiable is pretty far along the path to leaving. Annie is nowhere near that. She's still a little girl who desperately needs the approval of her only living parent and simply cannot accept that what he's doing is that horrible. We've seen Annie make excuse after excuse for him- and haven't really seen any sign that she doesn't believe them. It's further complicated because, honestly, a lot of his actions are justified and would be normal from a loving parent. Being disappointed in her cheating, recognizing that she's desperately struggling academically and needs to be held back, telling her she's too young for makeup, deciding that Renard and the Forest are dangerous and disrupting her studies- all of those are fair calls. It's entirely possible Surma would've made the same calls (save for the forest one?), but she would have done it more kindly and with unquestionable love and while addressing her daughter's emotional needs. Let me clarify. She knows that his actions are unkind and not justified, so yes she knows it is an unhealthy relationship. But what I said she refuses to recognize is that her relationship with her father is "a bad relationship that she needs to get out of." She's hoping that if she continues to appease him that his behavior will change and he will start acting in a kinder, fairer manner to her. She does not recognize that the relationship is not salvageable and needs to be terminated.
|
|
|
Post by kalechibki on Jun 11, 2015 3:05:21 GMT
It's further complicated because, honestly, a lot of his actions are justified and would be normal from a loving parent. Being disappointed in her cheating, so far so good... A loving parent would have arranged this between terms, and told their child about it at that time - NOT wait until after she attends one or more classes (that she won't be spending the term in) on the first day of school. Which means that whatever class(es) she SHOULD have been attending during that time happened without her, and what she should have been doing in those classes must be dealt with separately - taking up more of her time and making more work for the teacher(s). I could be very wrong, but Dreki's post appeared to me not to be justifying Anthony at all, but rather pointing out that, if Anthony hadn't been the dick that you correctly pointed out him being, these could be the right actions in the general sense - not in how he executed them however. That is to say that his motivations might be justifiable, but certainly not his actions. As both a father and as a victim of abuse (and mine was lower key than Anthony's is) I see both sides of this really really well. And I feel like Tom is dealing with this in a rather stark and honest manner. Going back now, and rereading Annie with knowing this runs as deep as it does, I now view the earlier years a good bit differently. I think because we knew so little, it was easy to gloss over just how bad things were. I didn't give Tom the credit for fleshing this out on earlier rereads - I won't fail to do so now. So many authors don't fully treat the emotional messes that their backstories would create. Tom really is. Most abusers aren't wrong - they just absolutely take things too far. I know that for my parents, they were abused themselves in different ways, and so coped with it by trying and swinging the pendulum too far in the other direction. I now try to get back to center so that my five year old boy and 16 month old daughter don't have to deal with the stuff that I have to. And I am constantly having to check myself at the door because things don't always go right, and nights when I've apologized to my son because I punished him inappropriately. It's hard not to rationalize, especially when you want to keep on loving them. I know on one hand what happened to me was inexcusable, and yet, here I already have laid my cards out by sharing my own justifications. At this point, my father has Alzheimer's disease and my mother is completely overwhelmed; I feel like to abandoned them now would be revenge, not justice, and certainly wouldn't make me feel any better nor change what was done. For someone like me, it's both easy to see how despicable Anthony has been from the get go, and how easily Annie defends him and makes it all her own fault. It's easy because I see it in myself.
|
|
|
Post by SilverbackRon on Jun 11, 2015 7:02:13 GMT
I am so happy to see Donald cut through the crap and straight up ask Anthony the important questions.
This is the page we have been waiting for since MARCH 13th! Can you believe we have been in agony that long since Anthony first appeared in the first page of The Tree?!
|
|
|
Post by FrozenFT on Jun 11, 2015 7:27:42 GMT
I am so happy to see Donald cut through the crap and straight up ask Anthony the important questions. This is the page we have been waiting for since MARCH 13th! Can you believe we have been in agony that long since Anthony first appeared in the first page of The Tree?! Shhh, you'll jinx it and Anthony will just leave and take Annie with her on the next page and we will NEVER get answers!
|
|
|
Post by eyemyself on Jun 11, 2015 10:42:49 GMT
so far so good... A loving parent would have arranged this between terms, and told their child about it at that time - NOT wait until after she attends one or more classes (that she won't be spending the term in) on the first day of school. Which means that whatever class(es) she SHOULD have been attending during that time happened without her, and what she should have been doing in those classes must be dealt with separately - taking up more of her time and making more work for the teacher(s). <b>I could be very wrong, but Dreki's post appeared to me not to be justifying Anthony at all, but rather pointing out that, if Anthony hadn't been the dick that you correctly pointed out him being, these could be the right actions in the general sense - not in how he executed them however. That is to say that his motivations might be justifiable, but certainly not his actions.</b> As both a father and as a victim of abuse (and mine was lower key than Anthony's is) I see both sides of this really really well. And I feel like Tom is dealing with this in a rather stark and honest manner. Going back now, and rereading Annie with knowing this runs as deep as it does, I now view the earlier years a good bit differently. I think because we knew so little, it was easy to gloss over just how bad things were. I didn't give Tom the credit for fleshing this out on earlier rereads - I won't fail to do so now. So many authors don't fully treat the emotional messes that their backstories would create. Tom really is. Most abusers aren't wrong - they just absolutely take things too far. I know that for my parents, they were abused themselves in different ways, and so coped with it by trying and swinging the pendulum too far in the other direction. I now try to get back to center so that my five year old boy and 16 month old daughter don't have to deal with the stuff that I have to. And I am constantly having to check myself at the door because things don't always go right, and nights when I've apologized to my son because I punished him inappropriately. It's hard not to rationalize, especially when you want to keep on loving them. I know on one hand what happened to me was inexcusable, and yet, here I already have laid my cards out by sharing my own justifications. At this point, my father has Alzheimer's disease and my mother is completely overwhelmed; I feel like to abandoned them now would be revenge, not justice, and certainly wouldn't make me feel any better nor change what was done. For someone like me, it's both easy to see how despicable Anthony has been from the get go, and how easily Annie defends him and makes it all her own fault. It's easy because I see it in myself. This was my take on the comment as well, that it wasn't defending Anthony, rather pointing out that his methods and delivery are the core problem in his interactions with Annie, not his actions or implied reasons. If anything this makes his abuse of Annie more realistic and more insidious. It's easier for him to justify that he is "doing the right thing" both to himself and to Annie because he is responding to real problems that any parent would want to address. However, from the outside it is clear that his responses are over the top controlling and are actively harming his daughter. Most abusers don't believe themselves to be abusive. They justify their actions based on their victim's behavior in very much the same way Tony is using his disappointment in Annie's cheating as a blunt instrument by which to humiliate and control her.
|
|
dreki
New Member
Posts: 25
|
Post by dreki on Jun 11, 2015 13:54:58 GMT
A loving parent would have arranged this between terms, and told their child about it at that time - NOT wait until after she attends one or more classes (that she won't be spending the term in) on the first day of school. Which means that whatever class(es) she SHOULD have been attending during that time happened without her, and what she should have been doing in those classes must be dealt with separately - taking up more of her time and making more work for the teacher(s). [cut out more of the same for length] Your post completely ignores what I said. I made it entirely clear in my post that Anthony repeatedly crosses lines and is abusive. I even ended my post with "It's entirely possible Surma would've made the same calls (save for the forest one?), but she would have done it more kindly and with unquestionable love and while addressing her daughter's emotional needs."- making it clear that I feel Anthony is doing none of these things. I merely pointed out that, for someone like Antimony who desperately wants to believe the best of her father, it's very easy to find actions that even a loving parent would have taken to reinforce the idea that he has her best interests at heart. Let me clarify. She knows that his actions are unkind and not justified, so yes she knows it is an unhealthy relationship. But what I said she refuses to recognize is that her relationship with her father is "a bad relationship that she needs to get out of." She's hoping that if she continues to appease him that his behavior will change and he will start acting in a kinder, fairer manner to her. She does not recognize that the relationship is not salvageable and needs to be terminated. The relationship is salvageable. There just needs to be a shift. If he does care about, even love, her- he needs to realize the damage he's doing. He needs to figure out how to show love and treat her emotional needs. He needs to stop treating her like a toddler (feh- I don't even treat my toddler this badly), start treating her like the teenager she is. They aren't equals yet, but they're more equal. He should be able to talk to her about her thoughts, feelings, needs. That doesn't mean he should bend over backwards and do whatever she wants- but he can make it clear he cares and take things into consideration. He's done a ton of damage in such a short time- but he can still fix it. I also still don't agree that Annie believes his actions are unjustified. This is a "agree to disagree" case, I imagine. She always has an excuse ready for him. I think she's getting there- but realizing that someone's actions are unjustified is very close to recognizing it's abuse and that you deserve better. Annie isn't there yet. I think she's getting there, but I don't think she's there. This was my take on the comment as well, that it wasn't defending Anthony, rather pointing out that his methods and delivery are the core problem in his interactions with Annie, not his actions or implied reasons. If anything this makes his abuse of Annie more realistic and more insidious. It's easier for him to justify that he is "doing the right thing" both to himself and to Annie because he is responding to real problems that any parent would want to address. However, from the outside it is clear that his responses are over the top controlling and are actively harming his daughter. Most abusers don't believe themselves to be abusive. They justify their actions based on their victim's behavior in very much the same way Tony is using his disappointment in Annie's cheating as a blunt instrument by which to humiliate and control her. Yup, yup, yup. Tony probably thinks that publicly humiliating Annie will help reinforce the punishment and help her turn around- he's not hurting her, he's trying to make her better ( in his mind). Even the etheric, non-consensual bone-surgery: it's entirely possible that he truly is trying to cure her. Why should he have to ask permission when he's just helping her? And he's went to such great lengths to switch her to a lower class and find her a place to stay despite how badly she's screwed up. He's done so much for his daughter, why is everyone looking at him like this? And why isn't Annie being more grateful to him, after all the trouble he's gone to to try and help her? My mom is exactly like this- she has a very warped view of reality. She thinks that what she wants to do is always right. So she does things without asking, truly trying to help, with DEVASTATING effects. And when you point out she screwed up that massively- she shuts down and gets defensive because she was just trying to help! Her way of showing she cares ultimately screws me over. It's incredibly difficult to handle or process. She's my mother, she loves me, she's showing me she loves me, why does it hurt so much when she's just showing me she loves me? I still think that Anthony is acting more out of obligation than love, though. We've seen that he lets his guard down and shows emotion around those he loves and trusts, but we've never seen him do that with Antimony. Which just makes it easier for him to ignore her emotional needs and feel he's doing the right thing by forcibly trying to fix her academically. But even if he does truly love her, he can very, very, very easily believe that he's doing what's right for her.
|
|
|
Post by sherni on Jun 11, 2015 14:04:22 GMT
Hm... It just occurred to me that there is another way this can go.
Donald: Tony, where the hell have you been?
Anthony: I will explain. *lapses into unintelligible code that only he and Donald can understand*
Donald: I see. That makes perfect sense. I completely understand. Now what were you saying about Kat?
Cue the comments section and forums exploding.
|
|
|
Post by Deepbluediver on Jun 11, 2015 14:14:03 GMT
FINALLY! Now of course we get to see if Tony actually gives any kind of meaningful answer.
|
|
dreki
New Member
Posts: 25
|
Post by dreki on Jun 11, 2015 20:53:27 GMT
Hm... It just occurred to me that there is another way this can go. Donald: Tony, where the hell have you been? Anthony: I will explain. *lapses into unintelligible code that only he and Donald can understand* Donald: I see. That makes perfect sense. I completely understand. Now what were you saying about Kat? Cue the comments section and forums exploding. Heck, cut to Kat exploding!
|
|
|
Post by TBeholder on Jun 11, 2015 22:46:33 GMT
Real Tony: ▲ 1 point (clumsy to the point of insulting intelligence of everyone involved) Seraphs: ▲ 2 (clumsier than a steamroller; a bow to Kat) GC's Internal Affairs Shenanigans: ▼ 2 (attracts the worst sort of attention - but still possible, as this could be someone's idea of Tony) "Is it any of your business?" "Um. Yeah. As a matter of fact, it is!" Depends on what's going on. But evasions are likely to raise a suspicion. Leading to the etheric check Annie forgot to do. yay things are coming to a head. That's a big step forward for Kat. But realistically, they'll still have to stand in a line first - and the head may get clogged very quickly. (sorry)Donald is actually taking an indirect approach. He isn't confronting Tony about Annie, which is almost certain to fail. He is trying to get Tony to talk about himself. Yes. There are still possibilities, of course. E.g. he says he worked as a surgeon at the Moonbase on the Moon... and boom, Annie resumes writhing - this time at least with a good reason.
|
|
|
Post by hypixion on Jun 11, 2015 23:29:15 GMT
Hm... It just occurred to me that there is another way this can go. Donald: Tony, where the hell have you been? Anthony: I will explain. *lapses into unintelligible code that only he and Donald can understand* Donald: I see. That makes perfect sense. I completely understand. Now what were you saying about Kat? Cue the comments section and forums exploding. Heck, cut to Kat exploding! Kat replies in same code
|
|
|
Post by Jelly Jellybean on Jun 12, 2015 2:31:50 GMT
Hey wait a minute! When Donny interrupted him, was Anthony trying to say "I've heard many things about her accomplishments as a divine creator"? Darn it Donny, now we'll never know!
|
|
|
Post by Vilthuril on Jun 12, 2015 15:40:32 GMT
I think that's a philosophical position which is, at best, debatable. That a person can act hateful unintentionally. Without intent or emotion, I ask, where does this hate come from precisely? The aether? Personally, I don't think Anthony has the emotional capacity to be hateful. He's inspired hate for his actions, but that doesn't reflect one iota on his own disposition or intent. Which is all that matters for such considerations. The idea that a person can do any amount of harm to others in any way, and as long as he (or she) does not consciously feel/identify himself as acting hatefully then truly he is not...is equally "debatable at best." Many - among them Christians such as C.S. Lewis, and Buddhists for example, as well as others whether religiously, spiritually or scientifically oriented who see humans and the universe as complex, multilayered and interwoven would say that indeed there are many places other than conscious intent and emotion that hate lives and acts; call it the aether, demons, Greed, the subconscious, the unconscious, behavioural-social-societal phenomena such as mobbing, obedience and power-relationships, or a hundred other things. Of course, in the end the important thing - in my view - is the outcome; if his cruel and abusive actions - whatever he understands consciously as their motivation - are inspiring, spreading and encouraging hatred, and also pain, anger, fear, sorrow and all kinds of other emotional and physical damage completely out of scale to any good that might be achieved, then who cares what is really causing him to do them, or what words we use to parse and define those causes? He needs to be stopped! And indeed, if as you also say Anthony is literally incapable ('does not have the capacity') of acting out of hatred (which again, is hugely speculative and debatable, I think) or presumably if true any other emotion, and therefore of acting as a decent human being and parent or understanding other people's feelings and human needs - at least, without years of heavy behavioural trainining - then all the more does someone need to step in and stop him. ---------- edit: To be clear, I do not think Anthony has no emotions/is incapable of feeling emotion. 1) Almost no one is, by no means excluding people with autism diagnoses or the like. 2) We have seen him being emotional in the past, what with his anger and confusion about Brinny, his grief about Surma followed immediately by glaring at and shunning Annie, Surma's - be it said possibly disingenuous - claim that he 'still' loved Annie. He may consider these emotions "unacceptable," and try to reject and hide them but that doesn't mean they aren't there, and that he is not being driven by a mash of anger, grief, shame, love, hate and confusion that he is unable to acknowledge and deal with (other than by putting on his blank face, hiding, blaming and controlling others, walking out on situations and people....)
|
|
|
Post by TBeholder on Jun 12, 2015 23:11:11 GMT
Feed not the birds, for they are like this: Chapter predictions: Zimmy shows up and punches Anthony for a second time. Do you really think it's either most likely or the worst Zimmy could do? Besides, it would be way funnier if Zimmy met him merely visiting Annie for some minor business. Consider: already rattled Zimmy walks in, takes a good look at that room... loses her grip on reality and freaks out... level 6 Zimmingham Eversion happens then and there. It's her best shot at improvement of designs and decorations, after all. Hey wait a minute! When Donny interrupted him, was Anthony trying to say "I've heard many things about her accomplishments as a divine creator"? Darn it Donny, now we'll never know! Yup. He looks like he's stumbles, but tries his best to not spill something.
|
|
|
Post by Per on Jun 13, 2015 17:35:08 GMT
The idea that a person can do any amount of harm to others in any way, and as long as he (or she) does not consciously feel/identify himself as acting hatefully then truly he is not...is equally "debatable at best." No, because the meaning of hate is not "something that causes harm".
|
|
|
Post by battlecharge on Jun 14, 2015 21:03:56 GMT
I've been following the story for some years now, but the recent storyline with Anthony has gotten me to register with the forums.
I know its been discussed that the Court brought Anthony when in Annie began to rebel too much, but has anyone considered that Anthony may have been trying to contact Annie for years and the Court was deliberately blocking him (at least until Annie became the Forest medium)?
Either way, the individual I'm really interested to meet Anthony is Jones. This is because if the Court did bring Anthony back (either directly or indirectly), she would have known something about it as the headmaster's aide in addition to the fact that Anthony called her to reestablish contact with his daughter.
|
|
|
Post by matoyak on Jun 14, 2015 22:50:38 GMT
This is because if the Court did bring Anthony back (either directly or indirectly), she would have known something about it as the headmaster's aide in addition to the fact that Anthony called her to reestablish contact with his daughter. Not necessarily. She didn't know that Annie wasn't to be the new Court Medium, in spite of Annie being her recommendation.
|
|
|
Post by speedwell on Jun 14, 2015 22:51:32 GMT
I really just thought Anthony came back because he was useless as a one-handed surgeon, especially one that lost his "leading" hand.
|
|
|
Post by Jelly Jellybean on Jun 15, 2015 2:43:54 GMT
I really just thought Anthony came back because he was useless as a one-handed surgeon, especially one that lost his "leading" hand. I thought Anthony couldn't be any colder to Annie. But if he only came back because he had nothing else to do, instead of coming back for Annie, then that is a new low.
|
|
|
Post by Daedalus on Jun 17, 2015 18:19:05 GMT
I really just thought Anthony came back because he was useless as a one-handed surgeon, especially one that lost his "leading" hand. I wonder if Tony blames Annie for the loss of his hand (we don't know how good of a view he got of Zimmy back in chapter 38, and they can look similar at times as we've seen several times). If he does, then he might blame her for the loss of his career, in addition to the loss of his wife. Which would fit, because personally I see anger in Tony hidden under his cold façade.
|
|
quark
Full Member
Posts: 137
|
Post by quark on Jun 17, 2015 21:41:12 GMT
I really just thought Anthony came back because he was useless as a one-handed surgeon, especially one that lost his "leading" hand. I wonder if Tony blames Annie for the loss of his hand (we don't know how good of a view he got of Zimmy back in chapter 38, and they can look similar at times as we've seen several times). If he does, then he might blame her for the loss of his career, in addition to the loss of his wife. Which would fit, because personally I see anger in Tony hidden under his cold façade. I hadn't thought of that, but it could very well be true. Zimmy was disguised as Annie at the time, with red hair and everything, and explicitly mentioned that hers was a 'message from [his] little girl'
|
|