pasko
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Objection!
Posts: 224
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Post by pasko on Jun 8, 2015 7:51:09 GMT
So, I've been sitting so long on this idea, I really hope no one has already come up with anything similar.
The question I want to address with this topic is: why Surma left Jimmy for Anthony?
Answer: Surma made a "contract" with Anthony, for which Anthony promises to try and cure her daughter.
Anthony is trying by all his means to make Antimony human, including cutting his own hand and replace it with a tool for etheric surgery (what happens in "Divine").
He leaves the court to study and muscle up for the task, and now he has a theory or some experiments to perform.
I also suspect that the fact that he speaks to Antimony (last page of "Red gets a name") is necessary for some etheric binding of the surgery tools, that he asks for (chapter "microsat 5").
He only comes back to the court because it seems obvious that external interference (Zimmy) makes it impossible to perform his experiments on Antimony remotely.
He probably dislikes and loathes his own daughter, yet he is bound by his promise to Surma and does what he thinks is the best for fulfilling said promise.
Why do Surma and Tony make this contract in the first place?
Surma sacrifices herself to save her daughter: reasonable to expect from a "fire head" like her.
Anthony is a scientist at core and sees it as a mission.
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Post by Chancellor on Jun 8, 2015 7:58:04 GMT
Eh, the idea that Tony is trying to "cure" Annie has been brought up quite often, even before he appeared in the flesh.
The loss of his hand and other wounds being due to Zimmy buggering whatever he was supposedly doing in Divine, and that the call in Microsat was somehow to get a fix on Annie to perform the process, have also been discussed.
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madragoran
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"If he trully does hurt you, I will rend the flesh from his bones on your word"
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Post by madragoran on Jun 8, 2015 7:58:10 GMT
Question. Why would Surma need to have a daughter in the first place? If she did not got pregnant by Anthony there wouldn't be a daughter to sacrifice herself for. Would aborting the child also save Surma? Hmmm
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pasko
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Objection!
Posts: 224
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Post by pasko on Jun 8, 2015 8:27:11 GMT
Question. Why would Surma need to have a daughter in the first place? If she did not got pregnant by Anthony there wouldn't be a daughter to sacrifice herself for. Would aborting the child also save Surma? Hmmm The whole point is that Surma does not want to "end" with her own life. Nature wants to propagate, and Surma chose to die in order to have a functioning offspring. |
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Post by rafk on Jun 8, 2015 9:08:15 GMT
Question. Why would Surma need to have a daughter in the first place? If she did not got pregnant by Anthony there wouldn't be a daughter to sacrifice herself for. Would aborting the child also save Surma? Hmmm The whole point is that Surma does not want to "end" with her own life. Nature wants to propagate, and Surma chose to die in order to have a functioning offspring. Couldn't Anthony do the same procedure on Surma, then? A woman who consented freely to the experiment and could potentially assist with the etheric side much more than Annie could even if Tony told her what was going on? Why choose to die and put Annie through this? |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Jun 8, 2015 11:20:12 GMT
The whole point is that Surma does not want to "end" with her own life. Nature wants to propagate, and Surma chose to die in order to have a functioning offspring. Couldn't Anthony do the same procedure on Surma, then? A woman who consented freely to the experiment and could potentially assist with the etheric side much more than Annie could even if Tony told her what was going on? Why choose to die and put Annie through this? If you are going down this path/theory, then Surma probably did consent to letting Anthony try the procedure(s) on her so Anthony would have a better chance of success with Annie. Personally I don't think Surma planned things out as much as this theory requires. But until more is revealed concerning Surma and Anthony, there really isn't anyway to prove or disprove theories about them. |
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Post by scalesandfins on Jun 9, 2015 6:42:10 GMT
Question. Why would Surma need to have a daughter in the first place? If she did not got pregnant by Anthony there wouldn't be a daughter to sacrifice herself for. Would aborting the child also save Surma? Hmmm Horrible as it is, I think something like this was the original plan. Either Surma was supposed to terminate the pregnancy or it was accidental, but she changed her mind and decided to keep Annie. If there ever was a contract, Surma broke it, and Anthony has resented Annie ever since. |
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pasko
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Objection!
Posts: 224
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Post by pasko on Jun 9, 2015 11:10:19 GMT
In my theory, Anthony DID perform experiments on Surma, which, yielded negative results. Therefore, they had the idea to try the "selective breeding" thing to have a better recipient, Antimony. As coyote says here www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=820, her behavior is a result of father's genetics. |
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dreki
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Post by dreki on Jun 9, 2015 22:05:22 GMT
In my theory, Anthony DID perform experiments on Surma, which, yielded negative results. Therefore, they had the idea to try the "selective breeding" thing to have a better recipient, Antimony. As coyote says here www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=820, her behavior is a result of father's genetics. He actually says "influence" rather than genetics. She was raised by Anthony as well as Surma. It would be interesting if it turned out that she wasn't actually Anthony's child... |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Jun 9, 2015 22:20:41 GMT
In my theory, Anthony DID perform experiments on Surma, which, yielded negative results. Therefore, they had the idea to try the "selective breeding" thing to have a better recipient, Antimony. As coyote says here www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=820, her behavior is a result of father's genetics. He actually says "influence" rather than genetics. She was raised by Anthony as well as Surma. It would be interesting if it turned out that she wasn't actually Anthony's child... Pssst... What if Human/Fire elementals reproduce through spontaneous pregnancy at around the eye of 25? What a twist! Yeah, I know. |
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dreki
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Post by dreki on Jun 10, 2015 0:24:33 GMT
I did wonder about that. Antimony looks strikingly like her mother. The biggest difference seems to be hair texture- she does have her dad's hair texture. Also, Coyote did specifically say that she's MOSTLY human and the result of a union between humans and fire elementals. It also doesn't explain Reynard's "If Surma ever had a child" rather than "When Surma had a child". (although Coyote says "when")
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Post by Daedalus on Jun 10, 2015 4:07:11 GMT
It would be interesting if it turned out that she wasn't actually Anthony's child... She is indisputably Anthony's child, by Word of Tom. Would aborting the child also save Surma? Not if they lived in Texas  |
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dreki
New Member
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Post by dreki on Jun 10, 2015 13:54:43 GMT
I haven't seen the word of Tom, has he explicitly said biological father? You can be someone's father without being their sperm donor. I don't think it's likely to be the case, though, and I agree that it would be a rather noxious twist given the circumstances.
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Jun 10, 2015 16:18:50 GMT
I haven't seen the word of Tom, has he explicitly said biological father? You can be someone's father without being their sperm donor. I don't think it's likely to be the case, though, and I agree that it would be a rather noxious twist given the circumstances. The quote was just "father". There is some possible wiggle room there, but I have to wear my +2 Hat of Tinfoil to argue for that wiggle room. EDIT: Oops, major correction, The quote was just "daughter". The question was: Is Annie really Anthony's daughter? The answer was: Yes |
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Post by Daedalus on Jun 11, 2015 3:35:55 GMT
Without very good reason to assume the opposite, I'm guessing that Tom does mean that there are no questions of parentage. Remember, this came after a series of questions about genealogy ("Is she secretly Rey's daughter?" "Is she secretly Eglamore's daughter?" "Is she secretly That-Girl-From-The-Photo's daughter?" etc) so Tom giving a simple yes to this seems pretty cut and dry to me. But YMMV. |
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dreki
New Member
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Post by dreki on Jun 11, 2015 11:45:19 GMT
It doesn't make a lot of sense for it to be someone she's met at court- unless they managed to do it without asking. Eglamore treats her as "the Carver girl", Renard was shocked and mourned Surma's loss when he saw Annie. Anja and Donnie didn't know Surma had died until after seeing that Annie was joining the court, and they may not have known Annie had even been born. Given how much all of them loved Surma, I really doubt they would've agreed to have a child with her and then not see her as she slowly died and their child grew. There's just been no foreshadowing to it.
I think there's still room for ambiguity, though. Anthony raised Annie from birth (to our knowledge), she's had no other father figures (to our knowledge)- he's undeniably her father, Annie is undeniably his daughter, whether or not they're biologically related. There's still a possibility there was another sperm donor. And, going along with this theory, that wording is very accurate as it's entirely possible they chose sperm from someone they've never met and who has no idea Annie exists. I realize the Court is different from the rest of the world, but given the technology the court has- sperm donation is certainly possible. Heck, I could imagine the Court having a sperm bank that dates back centuries- they could've even used sperm of someone long dead.
But, given the circumstances, that would still be a very noxious plot twist. Any insinuation that his actions towards Annie are because she's "not his REAL daughter" would be horrible. Even if Tom never intends them, it's going to be there. I hope we're not going there.
What would be REALLY interesting is if they'd used an EGG donor instead. Perhaps hoping that would be a loophole- the child isn't biologically Surma's, so wouldn't steal her flame, right? That just came to me. Yes, Annie is the spitting image of Surma- but that may be the fire elemental thing more than genetics. Again, absolutely NO indication whatsoever, needlessly complex so I doubt it's the case, but it would be very interesting.
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Post by TBeholder on Jun 12, 2015 0:58:11 GMT
So, I've been sitting so long on this idea, I really hope no one has already come up with anything similar. The question I want to address with this topic is: why Surma left Jimmy for Anthony? While there is such a question, it's dependent on another question: Did she leave Jimmy for Anthony? Answer: Surma made a "contract" with Anthony, for which Anthony promises to try and cure her daughter. Cure from what? Anthony is trying by all his means to make Antimony human, including cutting his own hand and replace it with a tool for etheric surgery (what happens in "Divine"). You mean the head-pigeon? He leaves the court to study and muscle up for the task Because there's another research center better for this theme, which somehow no one managed to mention (or even refer to) so far? Surma sacrifices herself to save her daughter: reasonable to expect from a "fire head" like her. From what? |
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pasko
Full Member
Objection!
Posts: 224
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Post by pasko on Jun 12, 2015 15:30:26 GMT
The question I want to address with this topic is: why Surma left Jimmy for Anthony? here: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1097It seems that Eggers doesn't even believe it possible. In my theory she dumped him to fulfill her "contract" with Anthony. |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Jun 12, 2015 22:07:37 GMT
The question I want to address with this topic is: why Surma left Jimmy for Anthony? Since you asked twice... The only reason we've been given in the comic is Surma's complaint that Jimmy was off training instead of being with her. There must be more to it than just that, but that is all that Tom has revealed so far. Even it explains why Surma left Jimmy, it doesn't really explain why Surma ended up with Tony. |
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Post by speedwell on Jun 12, 2015 23:14:03 GMT
Annie looks *exactly* like you would expect a daughter of Surma and Anthony to look. He is as obviously her father as my father was mine (I resemble both him and my mother quite a lot).
It doesn't mean she was conceived in the usual way (insert diagram of birds and bees here) or that her conception was the intended result of whatever mad (etheric?) science Surma and Anthony got up to (in order to make Surma able to bear children without the phoenix effect?). The timing of Annie's conception relative to the date of her parents' marriage might possibly be relevant to both why Anthony is so cold to her, and why Surma didn't marry James.
I appear to be hinting that Annie was conceived as the accidental result of Surma's effort to work with Anthony, her surgeon friend, to help make her able to bear a future child naturally to James, who she fully intended to marry... but due to Annie's conception, her parents decided they needed to marry each other instead. I don't actually believe this to be the case. It raises the oh-so-uncomfortable question of what exactly Anthony's genetic material was doing in the petri dish in the first place. As worthless a c... I mean, as bad a person as Anthony is, I can't see him stooping to that.
The Court, however...
And now I'm going to go to bed and try to sleep without that idea in my head.
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Post by sherni on Jun 13, 2015 20:33:33 GMT
Annie looks *exactly* like you would expect a daughter of Surma and Anthony to look. He is as obviously her father as my father was mine (I resemble both him and my mother quite a lot). It doesn't mean she was conceived in the usual way (insert diagram of birds and bees here) or that her conception was the intended result of whatever mad (etheric?) science Surma and Anthony got up to (in order to make Surma able to bear children without the phoenix effect?). The timing of Annie's conception relative to the date of her parents' marriage might possibly be relevant to both why Anthony is so cold to her, and why Surma didn't marry James. I appear to be hinting that Annie was conceived as the accidental result of Surma's effort to work with Anthony, her surgeon friend, to help make her able to bear a future child naturally to James, who she fully intended to marry... but due to Annie's conception, her parents decided they needed to marry each other instead. I don't actually believe this to be the case. It raises the oh-so-uncomfortable question of what exactly Anthony's genetic material was doing in the petri dish in the first place. As worthless a c... I mean, as bad a person as Anthony is, I can't see him stooping to that. The Court, however... And now I'm going to go to bed and try to sleep without that idea in my head. I'll just leave this here... *blushing* All I had to do was search 'Surma'. |
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Post by speedwell on Jun 13, 2015 20:53:52 GMT
I'll just leave this here... *blushing* All I had to do was search 'Surma'. Well, yes. But reportedly so did Joseph and Mary, after the birth of Christ. Jesus had brothers, after all. |
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Post by sherni on Jun 14, 2015 12:29:17 GMT
Good point. I did find this, though. I've been reading for hours now and poked all sorts of holes in my theories. Jesus had brothers? That's new. o.O |
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Post by speedwell on Jun 14, 2015 20:23:02 GMT
Good point. I did find this, though. I've been reading for hours now and poked all sorts of holes in my theories. Jesus had brothers? That's new. o.O Fair enough, though it does not rule out Surma being less than honest with Anthony (but then which of us thought she was, eh?). The idea that Jesus had brothers is new, if you consider Tertullian ca. 200 A.D. modern, heh. Mark and Matthew report the names of "brothers of Jesus" and it was popularly held that Mary and Joseph had a normal married life. Though if the early-church fanfic account of Mary's perpetual virginity is to be believed, it must have been awkward. |
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