|
|
Post by dawolf on May 19, 2015 1:20:57 GMT
Looking at the symbol... Reynardine himself has a symbol, here gunnerkrigg.com/?p=53On the very next page we see him go into the toy, and the symbol changes a lot, into Annies gunnerkrigg.com/?p=54Here's the first time he's a wolf. The symbol is the same gunnerkrigg.com/?p=214In the Hetty chapter, his symbol is shown expressly. It's now mostly his, and only partially Annies (the circle). www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1221It's a little more curved here, but still mostly his, even completely next to Annie gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1421I do not think he is under Annies full control anymore, and therefore I don't think she can give him up. And Tom is heavily into symbolism. The circle that remains, could be a circle representing love, not ownership. Something changed between 214 and 1221, to break the full ownership (or maybe, to break it completely). Tom is too careful with his drawings, and in 1221 I think he is deliberately showing a different symbol for Reynardine, as the symbol has its own panel. |
|
|
|
Post by Daedalus on May 19, 2015 2:06:05 GMT
Looking at the symbol... Reynardine himself has a symbol, here gunnerkrigg.com/?p=53On the very next page we see him go into the toy, and the symbol changes a lot, into Annies gunnerkrigg.com/?p=54Here's the first time he's a wolf. The symbol is the same gunnerkrigg.com/?p=214In the Hetty chapter, his symbol is shown expressly. It's now mostly his, and only partially Annies (the circle). www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1221It's a little more curved here, but still mostly his, even completely next to Annie gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1421I do not think he is under Annies full control anymore, and therefore I don't think she can give him up. And Tom is heavily into symbolism. The circle that remains, could be a circle representing love, not ownership. Something changed between 214 and 1221, to break the full ownership (or maybe, to break it completely). Tom is too careful with his drawings, and in 1221 I think he is deliberately showing a different symbol for Reynardine, as the symbol has its own panel. I suspect we must have seen his symbol clearly somewhere in the 1000 pages between those two citations so that we could narrow the window, but yes, something definitely changed. As you pointed out, Tom is careful with his symbology. My bet is that the moment of change happened when she offered to set him free in Chapter 32. I also would submit the guess that if we see Rey on Wednesday, his symbol will have changed again (to his alone, to nothing at all, or a hybrid with whatever Anthony's symbol is). |
|
|
|
Post by dawolf on May 19, 2015 2:16:16 GMT
Got it, I think. It's here, it's Jack's doing, combined with Miss Jones who actually breaks it, not anything Annie said. Starting here, note that both symbols are visible once Jack enacts the trap (bottom right panel) www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=712And again on the next page www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=713Clearly visible, both symbols www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=715That last one even has the symbol bottom right, next to "to be continued" Both symbols www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=719And then Jones breaks the spell (and her hand even seems to hit roughly where Annie's symbol is!), and as Renard comes out, it's as the plushie (so no symbol visible). He then turns back into the Wolf a couple of pages later (but only for one panel), and the circle is broken, and only one arm of the symbol curves. www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=726I'll eat my metaphorical hat if that isn't it. |
|
|
|
Post by dawolf on May 19, 2015 2:34:19 GMT
Looking at that last one a bit more, www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=726 I wonder if this implies half ownership. Annie thereafter owned half of him, and he owned half of himself. After all, he did get a symbol back after the trap broke. Annie could have given her half to her dad, but the other half remains Reynardines. And then, he simply doesn't cooperate with his half. He probably gets impelled to follow instructions, but weakly enough that he can refuse if he wants to. |
|
|
|
Post by Jelly Jellybean on May 19, 2015 2:55:39 GMT
Got it, I think. It's here, it's Jack's doing, combined with Miss Jones who actually breaks it, not anything Annie said. Starting here, note that both symbols are visible once Jack enacts the trap (bottom right panel) www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=712And again on the next page www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=713Clearly visible, both symbols www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=715That last one even has the symbol bottom right, next to "to be continued" Both symbols www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=719And then Jones breaks the spell (and her hand even seems to hit roughly where Annie's symbol is!), and as Renard comes out, it's as the plushie (so no symbol visible). He then turns back into the Wolf a couple of pages later (but only for one panel), and the circle is broken, and only one arm of the symbol curves. www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=726I'll eat my metaphorical hat if that isn't it. I hope your hat is made of fondant, because I think the first time the hybrid Reynard/Antimony symbol appears on Reynard is in Chapter 41. The symbols in Spring Heeled contained by the binding spell are Antimony and Reynard apart. Neither is the Reynard/Antimony hybrid symbol. And to me the symbol on page 726 is just Antimony. The regular Antimony symbol continues to appear into Chapter 41. __________ Reynard still has the full Antimony symbol until Chapter 41 Changes (a change I did not catch until now). The hybrid Reynard/Antimony symbol first clearly appears in the chapter cover on page 1128. The full Antimony symbol is on page 1136 through page 1140 And then the hybrid symbol is back on page 1142, and remains consistently for the rest of the chapter when Annie becomes the Forest Medium. The next chapter is Quicksilver where the hybrid symbol is displayed so brazenly. So I see the change between pages 1140 and 1142. Clearly caused when Annie started turning the Seraphs off with her physical finger and her etheric finger! Seriously though, there is nothing on page 1141 that appears likely. It would be more believable if the change was caused by either Kat being acknowledged as an angel and getting the mark of the creator, or Annie being made the Forest Medium and an hoary forest citizen. But those events occurred after the symbol appears. So this may be when the hybrid symbol appears, but it doesn't indicate why it appears. __________ EDIT: But you did make me obsessively look though many chapters trying to find clear examples of both symbols. So quit pulling my strings and making me dance, I have to go to bed. |
|
|
|
Post by dawolf on May 19, 2015 3:14:37 GMT
Well, then yours is a competing hypothesis  I think you're overplaying the number of panels though. 1136 is a half symbol (the left side doesn't curve, the right side does) 1137 is a half symbol (the left side doesn't curve, the right side does) 1138 - no Reynard 1139 - no symbol visible 1140 - I agree that this is almost the full symbol (no dots at the ends of the 3 bars, but both sides curve) 1142 - I agree that this has changed, and neither side curves 1145 - both sides curve a bit After this, no curves for the next few pages that I could see. I simply can't see this as the key (unless Annies words "then let my friend go", 1142 are significant...which is possible, as she doesn't define which friend). Tom's an excellent artist and meticulous, but it's perfectly possible that on non-crucial pages he doesn't make sure the symbol is always absolutely and utterly perfect. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 19, 2015 4:14:00 GMT
All these places where you are saying it's a "half symbol" seem questionable to me; I'm pretty sure it's just the perspective and, as you say, some natural variation in how Tom draws the symbol.
|
|
|
|
Post by Sky Schemer on May 19, 2015 6:16:47 GMT
All these places where you are saying it's a "half symbol" seem questionable to me; I'm pretty sure it's just the perspective and, as you say, some natural variation in how Tom draws the symbol. Agreed. See the symbol in page 1279 where it looks pretty "normal". |
|
Pig_catapult
Full Member
Keeper of the Devilkitty
Posts: 171
|
Post by Pig_catapult on May 19, 2015 8:05:20 GMT
I'm putting my money on "duress does not count" for transfer of magical ownership. Otherwise why wouldn't the Court have tried harder to get Renard from Annie? And some part of that either is unknown to Tony or is going over his head re: how it applies to the current situation.
|
|
|
|
Post by TheClockworkCoyote on May 19, 2015 9:04:35 GMT
Dinner with the Donlans? Now this I could get behind; no matter the outcome, I'm curious what they have to say to Mr. Carver. "Oh, I'm sorry, I seem to have missed my plate entirely and accidentally stabbed my fork into your leg," perhaps? "We'll be serving arsenic-laced cyanide, so bring your appetite." No, no, that's dinner with the Borgias. They live three streets over. Nice folks, just don't eat the mint humbugs, they seem to be employing Lord Downey's recipe. (Cookie to anyone getting the reference) |
|
|
|
Post by kelantar on May 19, 2015 13:57:08 GMT
I hate to be this guy, but I have to take the Occam's razor approach. The reason the symbol varies (in my opinion)? Because Tom is only human and drawing it every panel seems like a pain in the ass. I don't believe that just because there isn't a little curl on the end, it's not the same thing. Just like I didn't say "the design on the paper on this page looks different than the design on this page! Someone must have switched the talismans secretly!" And a little more about the symbols: Here's the first time we see the two symbols in question. Lead on the left (which represents the dragon slayer), Antimony in the middle (which represents Annie (and possibly Surma?)), and Mercury (which represents the body snatching ability, NOT REY HIMSELF). So even if Rey's symbol was changing, it wouldn't change to the other symbol unless he was switching bodies. |
|
|
|
Post by dawolf on May 19, 2015 17:57:58 GMT
Why do you think the symbol for Reynardine only relates to the body change ability? It's a great find that it's on all those animals, but it is now HIS power.
In the hetty chapter, Tom draws Reynardines symbol in a panel of its own, and it has changed. All the intermediaries could be natural variation, but that one is distinct as far as I'm concerned. It is no longer Annies symbol.
And regarding Occams Razor: there was a reason for Tom to add that panel. Why, if there is no change from the start?
|
|
|
|
Post by OrzBrain on May 19, 2015 18:16:44 GMT
Is Reynard doing that thing where whenever Anthony orders him to do something Reynard pretends Anthony was speaking in cypher telling him to do whatever he wants?
|
|
|
|
Post by cobaltflame on May 19, 2015 18:20:16 GMT
Here is the Quicksilver page with Renard's new symbol in its own frame. And here is Antimony's symbol for easy comparison.
|
|
|
|
Post by Refugee on May 19, 2015 18:58:59 GMT
I shouldn't think the Donlans can knock any sense at all in Anthony... but maybe they can get more answers. I doubt the Donlans want to knock sense into their old friend Tony, but get more answers, yes. (And then, if the answers are unsatisfactory, capture or, regrettably, kill their old friend Tony, whom they know well enough to know that if his mind is made up, and he is a threat to his daughter or the Court, there's nothing they could do to convince him otherwise. I'm intrigued that Tony agreed so readily. Does he know what the dinner will be about? Or does he just assume that he does? I'm really glad that Renard can resist Tony's orders, regardless of why :-) I have a side interest in why; there is an old, old principle about a coerced agreement being null and void. Annie may be able to give her mother's plushie away, but coerce Renard to act against his own interests, and the beloved daughter of Surma? Doubt it. I am far, far more interested in what Anthony wanted Renard's cooperation with. |
|
|
|
Post by machival on May 19, 2015 19:04:40 GMT
Here is the Quicksilver page with Renard's new symbol in its own frame. And here is Antimony's symbol for easy comparison. Personally, I think any changes are more reasonably chalked up to art evolution and Renard occasionally being off-model than anything else (Renard's wolf form has gotten a much fuller coat and less of a mangy dog look over the years, after all). The symbol, as originally presented is a little more intricate and thus harder to draw, so it's not unreasonable to think that Tom simplified it a little for stylistic or convenience reasons. It's certainly a more likely explanation than Tom trying to imply shifts in the metaphysics of Renard's ownership through subtle changes in the way he draws a couple of lines, shifts that have never been commented on or noticed in story, even when Renard's ownership is explicitly a topic of discussion. As for evidence of Renard being off-model at times, I'd like to point out that quicksilver page isn't even consistent in the depiction of the symbol. (The first panel with the symbol has the circle noticeably larger than it is in other panels on that page) |
|
|
|
Post by Refugee on May 19, 2015 19:22:54 GMT
Isn't the version on the plushie just a few hand stitches made by Surma? I don't expect it to be exactly true to the formal symbol.
What intrigues me about Surma's version is that it looks like the symbol for female, a circle with a cross under it, but also has raised arms, as if in blessing.
Dunno what that would mean, but it stabs me in the brain every time I see it.
|
|
anisky
Junior Member
Posts: 72 
|
Post by anisky on May 19, 2015 20:05:28 GMT
Isn't the version on the plushie just a few hand stitches made by Surma? I don't expect it to be exactly true to the formal symbol. What intrigues me about Surma's version is that it looks like the symbol for female, a circle with a cross under it, but also has raised arms, as if in blessing. Dunno what that would mean, but it stabs me in the brain every time I see it. Was the symbol actually on the plushy before Reynardine possessed it? I don't recall seeing the symbol when Rey is in plushie-form either... |
|
|
|
Post by keef on May 19, 2015 21:41:50 GMT
Isn't the version on the plushie just a few hand stitches made by Surma? I don't expect it to be exactly true to the formal symbol. What intrigues me about Surma's version is that it looks like the symbol for female, a circle with a cross under it, but also has raised arms, as if in blessing. Dunno what that would mean, but it stabs me in the brain every time I see it. Was the symbol actually on the plushy before Reynardine possessed it? I don't recall seeing the symbol when Rey is in plushie-form either... nope  Actually that was what I thought till the topic came up the last time. Someone wrote a good post about it, can't find it. |
|
|
|
Post by Refugee on May 20, 2015 0:45:20 GMT
Was the symbol actually on the plushy before Reynardine possessed it? I don't recall seeing the symbol when Rey is in plushie-form either... nope Actually that was what I thought till the topic came up the last time. Someone wrote a good post about it, can't find it. That seems to be correct. Renard's symbol changed to Antimony's, but the plushie is blank before then, and when Reynard chooses not to display the symbol. Renard says "This symbol means I am under your control". What I failed to understand is that Reynard is under Annie's control because she owns the plushie, not because the plushie bears her symbol. Thanks for straightening me out. |
|
|
|
Post by zbeeblebrox on May 20, 2015 4:04:22 GMT
In the somewhat-but-not-entirely unlikely chance that Rey is free, he will probably attack Tony during the dinner party. Or directly after. It depends on how long it takes him to visit Egglamore and discreetly tag him with that paper he tore off Annie during the cruise incident. Don't want him interfering yet again, after all.
But I'm still placing my bets on Rey having remained under Annie's control, due to technicalities.
|
|
|
|
Post by Refugee on May 20, 2015 4:55:16 GMT
But I'm still placing my bets on Rey having remained under Annie's control, due to technicalities. The technicality, perhaps, of truly repenting his actions, and loving Annie as a friend. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 5:34:14 GMT
I didn't see anyone mention this yet, so: Kat's "rebellious teen" face in the last three panels amuses me (especially panel 7).
|
|
|
|
Post by kelantar on May 22, 2015 13:34:09 GMT
Why do you think the symbol for Reynardine only relates to the body change ability? It's a great find that it's on all those animals, but it is now HIS power. !/gunnerkrigg/q/489434758 Someone gave me a pie yesterday, but pie does not now represent me. That's like saying that Eggers's symbol is the "no-eye" symbol because Anya tattooed it on him. It's just a symbol representative of a power/protection he has. The only thing that's different is that the ends aren't curved slightly. If this symbolized... whatever, why would it have changed back a few chapters later? My guess is that Tom got sick of drawing the little curly things, which are probably a pain to get even halfway symmetric, and then switched back when people started going crazy about the meaning of the mysterious changing symbol. (I'll also post this, which is from the forum comments for the page in question) The symbol is constantly changing slightly, just as the character's faces and other details are always changing slightly. |
|
|
|
Post by dawolf on May 22, 2015 21:50:35 GMT
Time will tell. I think Tom put the symbol deliberately into it's own panel, and that was for a reason. Otherwise there is no need for that panel. Anyway, not much point going round the houses on it again, let's see what happens in the future |
|
|
|
Post by dawolf on Jun 1, 2015 13:52:25 GMT
Happy to say I was wrong - good to see that Annie did pass Reynardine to Kat....
|
|
quark
Full Member
Posts: 137
|
Post by quark on Jun 2, 2015 9:46:22 GMT
Happy to say I was wrong - good to see that Annie did pass Reynardine to Kat.... Agreed! |
|
I think you're overplaying the number of panels though.
