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Post by guitarminotaur on Apr 24, 2015 14:51:29 GMT
I'm starting to think Kat might be wearing a mask of her own here.
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Post by hypixion on Apr 24, 2015 15:08:42 GMT
People saying Kat quicly giving up on Rey, she cannot help him. The only way to help him is helping Annie. If Annie gets everything on track again she will for sure fight for Rey.
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Post by keef on Apr 24, 2015 17:41:00 GMT
People saying Kat quicly giving up on Rey, she cannot help him. The only way to help him is helping Annie. If Annie gets everything on track again she will for sure fight for Rey. She could free Rey by stealing the toy, but she probably doesn't know. Maybe time for some wild speculation why Tony wants Rey so badly. Or why the court wants him.
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Post by sherni on Apr 24, 2015 18:31:34 GMT
Still greatly bothers me that she didn't push the Rey issue at all... She presumably has a limited time span before the control is transferred. Glad to see that Annie (claims) she will do something against her father. Odd that taking Rey wasn't that moment of rebellion. It just occurred to me that if Kat were to steal Reynardine now, she could easily get Annie into more trouble with her father. We've already seen that he has a very low opinion of her. Would he be likely to believe her If Reynardine turned up missing and Annie said she had nothing to do with it? It would be safer for Annie if Kat waited until Annie handed him over to Anthony and then took him away. Unfortunately, that means poor Reynardine is going to be left squirming- mentally, seeing as he can't move- until someone takes action. I think people often underestimate the sheer amount of power a parent- or any adult- can have over a child. I was in a similar situation to Annie's, at around the same age that she is now. I confessed to something I didn't do, and implicated a classmate (who was innocent as well) simply because I was told to by a teacher. Both of us were severely punished. I didn't want to do it and my friend forgave me, but I will always regret it. But like Annie, it never occurred to me that I had a choice. My teacher had made it clear that I was going to have to confess and I did so. And the worst was that I knew that she knew that neither of us were actually guilty. She just needed someone to blame. And what are the class donkeys for, yes?
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Post by Refugee on Apr 24, 2015 18:55:32 GMT
It just occurred to me that if Kat were to steal Reynardine now, she could easily get Annie into more trouble with her father. We've already seen that he has a very low opinion of her. All I know from this chapter is that on good evidence, Anthony suspected Kat of being complicit in Annie's cheating. When Annie accepted full blame, he simply dismissed Kat. I also see no evidence that he has forbidden contact between the two. He might, but that hasn't happened yet. I think people often underestimate the sheer amount of power a parent- or any adult- can have over a child. I was in a similar situation to Annie's Except Annie is in fact guilty as charged. Big difference. === If I am seen as "defending" Anthony here, I'd agree but only in the legal sense of not condemning him on inadequate or missing evidence. I feel bound to treat him under the "innocent until proven guilty" rule. I can't defend him morally, because I don't know him.
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Post by TheClockworkCoyote on Apr 24, 2015 19:11:02 GMT
Sooo... Kat hasn't stole Rey yet and now is in Annie's box. I wonder where this is going. Robots. It's all going to robots. Boxbot, you're in charge of ensuring this Rey-containing box arrives in Annie's room successfully. I'm certain you'll manage to get it there rather than place it in storage closet #15 down near the workshop. Vitally important it does not wind up in storage closet #15.
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Post by OGRuddawg on Apr 24, 2015 19:22:33 GMT
At least Kat was able to get Annie to smile. I wasn't expecting to see Annie smile at all until next chapter.
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quark
Full Member
Posts: 137
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Post by quark on Apr 24, 2015 19:49:45 GMT
Robots. It's all going to robots. Boxbot, you're in charge of ensuring this Rey-containing box arrives in Annie's room successfully. I'm certain you'll manage to get it there rather than place it in storage closet #15 down near the workshop. Vitally important it does not wind up in storage closet #15. BEST. PLAN. EVER.
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Post by sherni on Apr 24, 2015 20:03:04 GMT
All I know from this chapter is that on good evidence, Anthony suspected Kat of being complicit in Annie's cheating. When Annie accepted full blame, he simply dismissed Kat. I also see no evidence that he has forbidden contact between the two. He might, but that hasn't happened yet. Oh, my mistake! I meant to say that he has a low opinion of Annie, not Kat! She is guilty of cheating, certainly, but I'm not referring to the punishment he has dealt out (though in all honesty I think it is too much). I was referring to him demanding control of Reynardine and her giving it up without protest. I noticed comments on the comic page and here berating her for doing so and simply wanted to point out that sometimes it can be very difficult to say no. I can understand that and in fact, kudos to you for the way you have maintained your neutrality. We don't know enough about him or his motives to the condemn him for his actions. What I cannot justify and will condemn him for is the hateful way he has behaved towards Annie since the start of the chapter. There is nothing that can justify pushing someone until they are on the verge of an emotional breakdown.
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Post by TheClockworkCoyote on Apr 24, 2015 20:08:09 GMT
Boxbot, you're in charge of ensuring this Rey-containing box arrives in Annie's room successfully. I'm certain you'll manage to get it there rather than place it in storage closet #15 down near the workshop. Vitally important it does not wind up in storage closet #15. BEST. PLAN. EVER. *looks innocent*
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Post by Vilthuril on Apr 24, 2015 20:34:57 GMT
Itty bitty little wolfie butt crack sticking out. So sad. So kawaiiii. (I guess some things you can't hide.)
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Post by Refugee on Apr 24, 2015 20:42:34 GMT
I was referring to him demanding control of Reynardine and her giving it up without protest. I noticed comments on the comic page and here berating her for doing so and simply wanted to point out that sometimes it can be very difficult to say no. I am at least uncomfortable with Anthony's demand for Renard. The makeup thing is odd, and should have been handled privately. I believe Annie's cheating is severe, longstanding, and out of character. By academic standards, she deserves expulsion. Most of what Anthony has done is unusually mild. And I think many here are exaggerating what his conditions on her actually are; certainly they are reading motive where none has been presented. I see Kat breaking Annie out of her shock, so that Annie herself can make appropriate responses. I do NOT want anybody to try to save Annie, because that would make her even more helpless than she is now. Until I know what the heck is going on, and Annie's reaction, I'm going to resist condemning Anthony, or even his actions, as uncomfortable with him as they arethem as I am. He may well deserve condemnation, on at least some points, but I'll wait and see.
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Post by nero on Apr 24, 2015 21:40:37 GMT
Glad that Kat can cheer Annie up. Maybe Kat can convince Annie not to hand over Renard yet. Or if Renard is imprisoned again Kat can find out where he is and plan his escape from the Court.
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Post by emperorbob on Apr 24, 2015 21:48:05 GMT
Or if Renard is imprisoned again Kat can find out where he is and plan his escape from the Court. I don't think the threat is imprisonment. Not anymore. The risk is transfer of control, and that's the kind of thing you might not be able to fix after the fact. We'll see.
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Post by warrl on Apr 24, 2015 23:27:26 GMT
If I am seen as "defending" Anthony here, I'd agree but only in the legal sense of not condemning him on inadequate or missing evidence. Well, we have plenty of evidence to justify stripping him of parental authority over Annie and dismissing him from his position as a teacher. What's still up for grabs?
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Post by mithrandir on Apr 24, 2015 23:30:40 GMT
Kat is being a good friend. Her only fault is not seeing what this is. I think Kat knows something's Not Right. Why else would it occur to her that Annie might need a way to contact Kat that Anthony doesn't know about?
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Post by todd on Apr 25, 2015 0:16:27 GMT
Or why the court wants him. I don't think that one's a big mystery; the Court is afraid of Reynardine because of his ability to possess people (and thereby kill him). They no doubt fear that if he ever got free, he'd go on a massive killing spree in the form of "possess one person, jump to the next body, jump to the body after that" and so on until everyone in the Court's dead, then head back to the forest. (Overlooking that their own duplicity led to this, that if they weren't living next door to Gilltie Wood they wouldn't have to worry about its inhabitants, and that Rey is now repentant over what he'd done.)
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quark
Full Member
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Post by quark on Apr 25, 2015 0:46:59 GMT
I believe Annie's cheating is severe, longstanding, and out of character. By academic standards, she deserves expulsion. Most of what Anthony has done is unusually mild. And I think many here are exaggerating what his conditions on her actually are; certainly they are reading motive where none has been presented. No, Antimony doesn't deserve expulsion. Why? Let's put it like this: Punishments are (ideally) not because somebody 'deserves' to be punished, but to better their behaviour and/or protect the ones the offender has harmed. Plagiarism and 'cheating' in academic contexts is (rightfully) punished by expelling the offender from the community and re-evaluating all their work. This is done to protect the community and the work everybody else is doing. So, what would expelling Antimony accomplish? It's not necessary to protect the community - her cheating harmed nobody but herself. It will not serve to better her behaviour, since she won't be able to do it right. So, both goals of a punishment are not archived. And, what's more: It was the responsibility of the school to act, and to stop the behaviour (and yes, it's hers too, but there's a reason why we don't sell alcohol to 12-year-olds and don't put them in jail when they steal - they are still in the process of learning how to be a proper adult), and (for whatever reason) they didn't act on it.
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Post by kaocyde on Apr 25, 2015 1:37:55 GMT
I've been reading thru a few of the recent threads, particularly since the reveal of Annie's hair cut, and there's something I haven't seen mentioned yet. So I decided it would be worth making an account just to mention it myself.
Has anyone else noticed that Annie looks almost identical to how she did as a child in the hospital? A particularly good comparison is way, way back on page 122. The short hair, lack of make-up, nice wide eyes. Her eyes are also showing a lot of color a well, very prominent irises. Even the gown she's wearing is near identical, although without a collar. I can't help but think that she is either reverting back to a child-like state mentally or if Tony does have some measure of control over her and is reverting her to how she was the last time he saw her. Maybe he's a father trying to get back the little girl he let go of, though in the worst method imaginable.
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Post by machival on Apr 25, 2015 1:53:49 GMT
I've been reading thru a few of the recent threads, particularly since the reveal of Annie's hair cut, and there's something I haven't seen mentioned yet. So I decided it would be worth making an account just to mention it myself. Has anyone else noticed that Annie looks almost identical to how she did as a child in the hospital? A particularly good comparison is way, way back on page 122. The short hair, lack of make-up, nice wide eyes. Her eyes are also showing a lot of color a well, very prominent irises. Even the gown she's wearing is near identical, although without a collar. I can't help but think that she is either reverting back to a child-like state mentally or if Tony does have some measure of control over her and is reverting her to how she was the last time he saw her. Maybe he's a father trying to get back the little girl he let go of, though in the worst method imaginable. Plenty of peeps have mentioned it, yep. The dress at least has been shown to be a part of Annie's wardrobe (something she wears around the dorm but not out and about), so Anthony probably isn't responsible for the outfit at least.
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Apr 25, 2015 3:37:51 GMT
Or why the court wants him. I don't think that one's a big mystery; the Court is afraid of Reynardine because of his ability to possess people (and thereby kill him). They no doubt fear that if he ever got free, he'd go on a massive killing spree in the form of "possess one person, jump to the next body, jump to the body after that" and so on until everyone in the Court's dead, then head back to the forest. (Overlooking that their own duplicity led to this, that if they weren't living next door to Gilltie Wood they wouldn't have to worry about its inhabitants, and that Rey is now repentant over what he'd done.) Anja told Annie why the Court thought Reynard was a risk. Coyote is powerful, but he promised to leave everyone in the Court alone. Reynard is not constrained by any similar promise and Coyote was trying to make Reynard almost as powerful as himself. Possessing others was just one of many powers Coyote possessed and there might be other powers that are far more threatening to the Court. The Court used Surma to lure Reynard to the Court where he could be kept separated from Coyote. The Court may not know that Annie offered to free Reynard, but the Court can see that Annie was migrating to the Forest (becoming their medium and honorary citizen). The Court can't risk Annie taking Reynard back to Coyote, so the Court needs another way to keep Reynard in the Court.
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Post by Refugee on Apr 25, 2015 4:40:37 GMT
Well, we have plenty of evidence to justify stripping him of parental authority over Annie and dismissing him from his position as a teacher. We disagree on this. Many schools would expel Annie for cheating as much as she did. (The only sense I meant by "deserve", incidentally.) The implication is that they would not dismiss Anthony for the actions he's taken. I think it's likely he's put Annie back a year, and adjusted her living arrangements accordingly, with the approval of the school, possibly even at their urging. As far as Renard goes, I'm more concerned about his welfare than the effect on Annie. She can take it, given the chance. I don't know about the makeup. That's really weird. We haven't seen that Anthony's forbidden Annie to contact Kat or anyone else she pleases--except the Forest folk, and again, that might well be the Court. If the Court rejects her diplomatic mission, which they are free to do, Coyote no longer can compel them to release her to him. We haven't even seen that Anthony ordered Annie to cut her hair. Annie's taken some severe blows today, but she wouldn't be open to them had she not cheated, and she knows that. I think part of her shock is because she's afraid she hurt Kat, but that's in abeyance. She's afraid she may have betrayed Renard--and maybe she has, we'll see. Until I know enough to conclude that Annie has taken permanent injury from Anthony's action, no, I'll reserve judgment. And take Annie's Father away from her without her consent? I believe, very strongly, that that would do far more damage to Annie than anything Anthony has done. That would be an abusive intervention in itself, given what we know so far.
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Post by sherni on Apr 25, 2015 8:52:29 GMT
I am at least uncomfortable with Anthony's demand for Renard. The makeup thing is odd, and should have been handled privately. It is more than odd. He stated that cosmetics are not allowed in his class and told Annie to remove her makeup. He did not ask anyone else. There was at least one other girl wearing makeup to whom he said nothing, which gives lie to his earlier statement of not allowing cosmetics in his class. This much is clear- he singled Annie out in an unprofessional and humiliating manner for something as minor as her makeup. As to not wanting her to wear makeup, that is between him and Annie. How much of a say should a father have in what his teenage daughter wears? I believe Annie's cheating is severe, longstanding, and out of character. By academic standards, she deserves expulsion. Most of what Anthony has done is unusually mild. And I think many here are exaggerating what his conditions on her actually are; certainly they are reading motive where none has been presented. An expulsion would not help Annie. And it is ideally given to students who are beyond any help their school can give them. Annie has been cheating for far too long, but in her case, the Court should take some accountability. Her education is their responsibility. They were aware of her cheating and for whatever reasons they did nothing. They have no excuse for that, and it need not have come to this had they taken steps earlier. A student who is cheating is a student who needs help. I don't know what the school rules in the UK are, but here a student is given some warning before they are held back or expelled, both of which are seen as last ditch measures. There is a protocol to be followed, and the decision is never taken by a single teacher. Being held back is a huge loss of status and a very awkward situation for both that unfortunate student and their new classmates. Some can make friends, but others are often teased or bullied or end up isolating themselves. Many lose touch with their earlier friends- said friends also may not want to keep in touch with a 'junior'. To move Annie back a year would uproot her from what she is familiar with as well as the circle of friends she has built up. It would be quite a large blow for her and one that need not be necessary. She can be tested to see how much she really knows and the decision can be taken based on that. She can be given make up work and whatever extra help she needs. It would be a better alternative than moving her back. I agree that some of the accusations levelled against Anthony are reaching too much. We still don't know his intentions, and we don't know if he actually does intend to keep her locked up and isolated from her friends as some people have suggested. But she is definitely going to see less of them, that's true. I see Kat breaking Annie out of her shock, so that Annie herself can make appropriate responses. I do NOT want anybody to try to save Annie, because that would make her even more helpless than she is now. Until I know what the heck is going on, and Annie's reaction, I'm going to resist condemning Anthony, or even his actions, as uncomfortable with him as they arethem as I am. He may well deserve condemnation, on at least some points, but I'll wait and see. I don't think anyone but Annie can save Annie. They can help her, but in the end she'll have to break out of it on her own. I can make guesses as to what he intends- but not his true motives. Judging by his behaviour so far, things don't look too good for Annie. A parent who elicits such an emotional reaction from his daughter simply with the sound of his voice is someone who should be watched.
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Pig_catapult
Full Member
Keeper of the Devilkitty
Posts: 171
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Post by Pig_catapult on Apr 25, 2015 11:54:10 GMT
I think Kat's got a Plan. It's going to involve robots, because Anthony can't discipline robots. Hopefully it is also going to involve robots stealing Reynardine from Anthony. Kat is being a good friend. Her only fault is not seeing what this is. I think Kat knows something's Not Right. Why else would it occur to her that Annie might need a way to contact Kat that Anthony doesn't know about? Sometimes your subconscious figures something out without telling the rest of you. I think Kat's got a "gut feeling" that something is Not Right, but she hasn't consciously put it all together yet.
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Post by warrl on Apr 25, 2015 18:23:51 GMT
No, Antimony doesn't deserve expulsion. I would say that by ordinary standards and procedures she might, but they are not applicable. Why? Because we're flat-out told that the school has known about her cheating for quite a while - but NOTHING has been done about it. If anyone should be expelled, I'd start with whoever is responsible for the decision to just ignore the cheating. A much lesser punishment is called for... back when the cheating was first discovered. And combined with investigation into why she's cheating rather than doing her own work, and an appropriate remedial response. If she responded to that by continuing cheating, through multiple cycles, then perhaps expulsion would be appropriate. Instead the school held off on any response at all, until they brought in Anthony and he delivered a blow far worse than expulsion.
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Post by warrl on Apr 25, 2015 19:08:29 GMT
Annie's taken some severe blows today, but she wouldn't be open to them had she not cheated, and she knows that. The abandonment, the lack of even a single friendly word, the singling out for embarrassment and humiliation over her makeup in front of the other students - none of those are even remotely justified or excused by Annie's cheating, and they are sufficient reason why I would strip Anthony of parental authority. Him systematically stripping her of - and mocking - everything she has achieved and every connection to her mother don't help. But at least some of that could arguably be considered to be because of her cheating (whether it's an appropriate response to said cheating is another question). The excessive demands on the other students also have nothing to do with Annie's cheating. And that, on top of the singling out and humiliation of one student over makeup are why I would remove him as a teacher. The simple degree of worshipful unthinking obedience that Annie has shown is enough to show me that she has taken severe injury from Anthony's actions - most likely going back to before she came to the Court. And an injury doesn't have to be permanent to be abuse. Inform her that thoughtful and responsible adults consider him unfit to be a parent and she deserves better? You think that might be worse than turning her into an emotionless robot? Sounds like medical care for a serious injury to me.
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Post by ninjaraven on Apr 25, 2015 20:13:41 GMT
Annie's taken some severe blows today, but she wouldn't be open to them had she not cheated, and she knows that. The abandonment, the lack of even a single friendly word, the singling out for embarrassment and humiliation over her makeup in front of the other students - none of those are even remotely justified or excused by Annie's cheating, and they are sufficient reason why I would strip Anthony of parental authority. Him systematically stripping her of - and mocking - everything she has achieved and every connection to her mother don't help. But at least some of that could arguably be considered to be because of her cheating (whether it's an appropriate response to said cheating is another question). The excessive demands on the other students also have nothing to do with Annie's cheating. And that, on top of the singling out and humiliation of one student over makeup are why I would remove him as a teacher. The simple degree of worshipful unthinking obedience that Annie has shown is enough to show me that she has taken severe injury from Anthony's actions - most likely going back to before she came to the Court. And an injury doesn't have to be permanent to be abuse. Inform her that thoughtful and responsible adults consider him unfit to be a parent and she deserves better? You think that might be worse than turning her into an emotionless robot? Sounds like medical care for a serious injury to me. Why do you assume the makeup had anything to do with Annie's cheating? Or the confiscation of Rey and the grounding Annie to the Court, for that matter? The only thing Tony specified for cheating was the repeat of year 9. I suspect that the makeup removal, hard refusal to talk about his injury, confiscation of Rey, and forbidding of Forest contact are for other (as of yet, unrevealed) reasons. Stop attributing to malice and cruelty what can be explained by less criminal motives. Annie's actions have, until recently, unquestionably been her own. I suspect that these actions (cutting her hair, dressing in the smock) are still her own. She loves her dad like a little kid loves their dad, and needs him to be around for a bit, if for no other reason than to realize that her view is inaccurate and needs to change, but hopefully more than that. Her current actions reflect her current mental state, and I think most of us agree she needs to grow out of her current view of her dad. Just because someone worships another person doesn't necessarily mean that the person worshipped wants to be in that position, or is even aware they are in that position. Of course Annie deserves a better parent than what Tony's been. But at this point in time, Annie sees her father as the Sun in the sky - how is she going to change that attitude if her father isn't around for her to see how flawed and frail he truly is? Taking her father away will just continue to keep her current attitude in stasis. Also, I want to see if Tony can change and become a better parent than he's been. I want Tony to at least get a shot at a second chance and to become a better person, like Rey did - whether he screws it up or not is his decision (Rey vs. Hetty). But he has to be given a chance first.
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Post by keef on Apr 25, 2015 22:18:40 GMT
Or why the court wants him. I don't think that one's a big mystery; the Court is afraid of Reynardine because of his ability to possess people (and thereby kill him). They no doubt fear that if he ever got free, he'd go on a massive killing spree in the form of "possess one person, jump to the next body, jump to the body after that" and so on until everyone in the Court's dead, then head back to the forest. I don't think the court is afraid of Rey. Even a whiteleg infested kid could build a prison for him. What you describe could have been dealt with easily: Take Rey from Annie and kill him. Yes, taking him from Annie would mean Rey is set free, but he has only a limited amount of time before he needs a new body. If everybody around him is protected by a pendant or a tattoo, he'll go the same way Hetty went. He could be forced to enter a potato, the potato could then be fed to Cityface and his mates, and all there would be left of him would be bird-.... Or they could have forced Annie to hand over Rey to Coyote, if Coyote promised to keep him in the Forest. Or they could have just simply asked Rey if he would make the same promise Coyote made, and never show his face again. They really don't want him dead, imprisoned or banned; they want to control him. Anja told Annie why the Court thought Reynard was a risk. Coyote is powerful, but he promised to leave everyone in the Court alone. Reynard is not constrained by any similar promise and Coyote was trying to make Reynard almost as powerful as himself. Possessing others was just one of many powers Coyote possessed and there might be other powers that are far more threatening to the Court. The Court used Surma to lure Reynard to the Court where he could be kept separated from Coyote. The Court may not know that Annie offered to free Reynard, but the Court can see that Annie was migrating to the Forest (becoming their medium and honorary citizen). The Court can't risk Annie taking Reynard back to Coyote, so the Court needs another way to keep Reynard in the Court. But the Court does not tell subordinates like Anja, Donny, Eglamore or Surma more then they need to know. After Anja developed the eye symbol, and Jack demonstrated how easy it is to contain Rey, you have to doubt the "official" story (this is the moment to put on your tinfoil hats). The Court never feared Renard. They wanted a demigod to study. Surma delivered, but Annie gave them so much more: a controlled demigod. And that control can now be transferred to one of their own, a member of the leadership of GC: Anthony Carver.
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Post by youwiththeface on Apr 26, 2015 1:57:10 GMT
You know, I've got a bad feeling about why the court would want Renard. Sure they'd want control over him to keep him from doing anything they didn't want...but they've also built machines that can suck the ether out of the environment. And a fox god would presumably have quite a lot of ether. And then there's stuff like this. Please have some kind of back-up plan, Kat.
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Post by arf on Apr 26, 2015 3:07:09 GMT
*looks innocent* Boxbot then proceeds to successfully deliver box to Annie's new room. Because Boxbot is like Chun the Unavoidable.
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