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Post by Vilthuril on Apr 23, 2015 1:23:56 GMT
Just a little side thing, but the closeup of Annie's hair in panel two breaks my heart that much further. I have the exact same sharp/ragged edge and shape to my hair - that's not a professional cut, that hair was pulled into a tight ponytail at the base of the neck and hacked off by a wrong-handed amateur. Mine was voluntary and for fun but... Anthony sheared her! Or she did it herself. (I whacked my own hair short just the way you describe once. Of course, I'm also a guy so the standards may be lower.) Not that either way it happened is good for her here. In both cases, Anthony is generally drawn the same way - mouth closed, with a slight discontinuity in the line, on the left side from our perspective. Not, I suspect, a coincidence; goes with the blank stare....
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Post by emperorbob on Apr 23, 2015 1:31:09 GMT
Somebody in the comments called it "Chekhov's walkie-talkie". I'm in agreement. You don't dedicate most of a page to one little gift without having a plan to use it some way. Some options: - There's the obvious use in the current situation. Workaround for the relative physical isolation/Use in an eventual "jailbreak" (although I doubt Annie's current state is conducive to that).
- Another opportunity for a "kick the dog" moment for Mr. Carver, who confiscates it. But we've had plenty of those already
- Annie throws it away (as some suggested in this thread). Again, we've had plenty of friendship betrayal (with handing Rey over) already, so I don't see this happening except as a catalyst for something very drastic on Kat's part.
- There's been some foreshadowing in the last treatise that Annie ends up in the forest. If Annie's going to cross the bridge semi-permanently (and against her father's wishes), then this becomes her only line of communication with her friends in the court.
On a side note, my bet is that Annie's place near year 9 dorms is a one-person submersible capsule in the same water tank.
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Post by Onomatopoeia on Apr 23, 2015 1:42:38 GMT
Can you substantiate this claim?
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Post by creepingone on Apr 23, 2015 2:34:46 GMT
You are oversimplifying and misrepresenting the viewpoint you oppose. Continuing to push Annie to face her problems is not the same thing as what you just described. The breakdown has to happen. And delaying it significantly while Reynard is imprisoned isn't acceptable. I think Kat may have a plan for him though. As long as Reynard is in Annie's possession, he is not imprisoned or enslaved. I have no problem with continuing to push Annie, even to the point of breakdown. I only have a problem with doing so without a complete understanding of her situation, which, as I have been saying for this entire chapter, we do not have. I am counseling against panic, and against hateful vengeance. I just want Kat to listen to Annie for a few minutes, and find out what her needs are now. There is a point at which intervention itself can become abuse, where the focus is on the outcome desired by the interveners, not on the person who is actually suffering. If Kat cannot listen to Annie for a few minutes, to come up with a plan she agrees with; if instead Kat just bullies Annie into rash action, she's not that much better than Anthony. I can't say I agree with you very often, but this is so true. Kat must put aside her own outrage if she seeks to help Annie, or Renard for that matter. Whilst it might be cathartic for Kat, and us, to scream at Annie, it will only make matters worse for everyone. I doubt Kat would just give up on Renard. I think she's playing it cool here, because that is what needs to be done to achieve the best possible outcome. We know Kat well enough by now to give her the benefit of the doubt, and trust that she'll do what's right.
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Post by goldenknots on Apr 23, 2015 3:08:56 GMT
Just a little side thing, but the closeup of Annie's hair in panel two breaks my heart that much further. I have the exact same sharp/ragged edge and shape to my hair - that's not a professional cut, that hair was pulled into a tight ponytail at the base of the neck and hacked off by a wrong-handed amateur. Mine was voluntary and for fun but... Anthony sheared her! That hadn't occurred to me. I wonder if we'll find out for sure about that.
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Post by TBeholder on Apr 23, 2015 4:11:03 GMT
As I've mentioned in the past couple of weeks, the current developments in the comic (which look as if they aren't going to be reversed any time soon - certainly not by the end of the chapter) will make it extremely difficult, if not impossible, for Annie to play an active part as protagonist. Her father's new rules and restrictions provide an obvious barrier (Anthony hasn't explicitly forbidden her to continue investigating the weird-goings on in the Court as he had forbidden her from visiting the forest, Any new rules and restrictions as such would mean very little, just like the old ones. The barrier is in her head. Which is why the restrictions are but a small part of the problem. In this shape she won't think to do anything at all on her own, and lucky that she doesn't walk into the walls (yet). but I suspect that's only because her visits to the forest are public knowledge and her snooping about the Court isn't; I was going to answer "no way", but realized it may be an important point. If whoever gave him "update" is not admitted to the tracking system, nor connected to Spring Heeled incident, nor even aware how Annie got Renard in the plushie in the first place, this eliminates everyone we'd expect him to ask and everyone we know who could show initiative. So it may be some unnamed pencil pusher. Or someone who is okay with that because she can be tracked within the Court. But then, it may be simply because mere snooping around is not worth a mention - it's expected and quietly encouraged. furthermore, Annie's clearly no longer in the right mental or emotional condition to take an active role. Exactly. But it's bound to either get worse or get better soon enough. I still suspect that the shift will be moving to Kat now over the next several chapters of the comic; she doesn't have similar restrictions on her and still has initiative. Probably. She can report discoveries to Annie - maybe in little scenes at the end of upcoming chapters - until Annie's situation changes. Yes, but what this could achieve? Obviously some threads will most likely be placed on hold for a while (such as the search for a way to free Jeanne), but others (like the robot project) can continue. It's not like Kat is a little distracted with this matter?
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jocobo
Junior Member
Posts: 78
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Post by jocobo on Apr 23, 2015 4:59:43 GMT
I have to say I am a bit dissapointed. I thought Our Robotic Lady, Glorious Katerina was about to finally lead the counter-ofensive here. I was hoping she would push. So, you want Kat to go Full Patton on Annie, eh? Slap her around a bit? Tell her what a useless coward she is? Court martial her for being lost and afraid? Tell a fourteen year old school girl with a jetting hole in her heart that she needs to grab her rifle, jump out of her trench, and running screaming across no mans land directly at the machine gun nest? Good plan, good plan. Looking forward to seeing how that goes. Let's give Annie a moment to breath, try to establish some sort of equilibrium, then talk out some options to betraying her friends and herself. It's a million to one chance, but it just might work. I assume you are fully aware that what you jsut did there is a complete and total warping of what I said. You took my point and with some incredible degree of hyperbole, twsited it into something completly different. As a general rule, that is considered a poor debate tactic, a poor contribution to discussion or a positive community and is over-all rather rude. What I want is for KAt to ask Annie "What is it you feel you have to do?" And "Why do you feel that way". Bluntness, frank discussion and directness are not the same as agression. It has been a reoccuring theme that Annie needs the occasional encouragment in order to stand up for her self. Coyote performed that function in Crash Course and Ysengrin ahs done it in both Fire Spike and Annie int he forest. What I want is for KAt to perfrom that right now, especially since it seemed that genuine progress was being made.
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zirka
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I have become one with my anime and appear in backgrounds looking confused
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Post by zirka on Apr 23, 2015 5:02:47 GMT
Two pages ago Kat was holding Rey with both hands. One page ago she had one hand free to wipe her tears. On this page she has both hands free and is seen ducking into her bedroom to get a radio. I am going to hope that she stuffed Renard into a pocket while distracting Annie with tears, and then hid him in her room.
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Post by Refugee on Apr 23, 2015 5:37:19 GMT
As a general rule, that is considered a poor debate tactic, a poor contribution to discussion or a positive community and is over-all rather rude. Granted. But then here is what I was responding to: "I have to say I am a bit dissapointed. I thought Our Robotic Lady, Glorious Katerina was about to finally lead the counter-ofensive here. " That, against the background of people screaming for Anthony's blood since the start of the chapter, and some directly insisting that Antimony should be the one to draw it. To say nothing of people not just presuming Anthony's guilt, but guilty of the worst possible things, charges based on little more than dislike for him personally, or because Everybody's Favorite Spunky Girl had her feelings hurt. As a result, I'm getting a bit touchy about people talking in military terms like "counter-offensive". Kat is the first person in this chapter to stop, close her eyes, take a deep breath, put her own feeling aside, and just tell Annie that she has a friend who will be there for her no matter what. That is an incredibly powerful statement, and yet people are glossing it over, and want Kat to lead a "counter-offensive". Who else but Annie, the presumed victim in all this, is Kat going to lead? Why the urgency? Not just speaking to you here, jocobo, but do folks not understand that Annie loves her Father? That she wants him to love her? That who she loves and why is not ours to judge? That "curing" her of her love for her Father would be tantamount to "curing" her of her love, period? That if she actually does have to fight her Father, it will likely destroy her, too? I, too, want Annie to recover herself. I want Renard to be freed. I want Annie to face her Father, and ask the questions she's been holding for two or three years now. Just not right now this minute, not until she's not spending every ounce of her strength to keep from acting like a complete fool. Now is not the time to probe or to press. Just let her breath.
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karl
New Member
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Post by karl on Apr 23, 2015 6:07:58 GMT
I don't think it was unreasonable at all to hope for Kat to push Annie harder; that could have been exactly what she needed to get snapped out of it. Then again, neither is it necessarily unreasonable to go the other way and soft-pedal it, take the harm reduction route and try to work her around gradually. Presumably, Kat knows Annie better than we do and can feel her out on this. Or, as youwiththeface speculated above, perhaps she is weirded out and can also only do so much herself at this point(*). It is a real shame of course that Reynardine is getting placed into the hands of someone who, unlike Eglamore, may not want to just stop him from hurting people, but actually use or harm or completely lock him into absolute immobility... p.s. Yay! Kat, no matter what is going on. Yay! (*) "Who knows?" Maybe not us, any time soon. I note that people still seem to be holding out hope in each thread that, "If we just wait until Wednesday (or Friday, or Monday), X or Y will be explained/clarified." And then it isn't! Seems to me that we who enter here must abandon hope of quick knowledge of any particular thing, being like unto even City Face and gobbling up whatever breadcrumbs of information the inscrutable Tom may scatter before us. I (now) actually think it that pushing Antimony in such a situation would have likely resulted in a "bad end". Pushing someone that emotionally unstable should be the very last thing to try. "Breaking" Antimony is far more likely to end in a burning of bridges (both figuratively and literally, I mean there is a precedent of burning a bridge) and/or physical coma. Nothing has ended yet, I assume, a quick breather and assurance that Kat is on Antimonys "side" right now is the way to go. Of course there is a possibility that pushing Antimony would have ended well but I think that chance is small and the de-escalation way is the boring but practical way. Also I'm thinking that Kat might be asking Antimony to leave Renard to her. There is also the possibility that giving Renard to Anthony might not be a bad thing, they might end up having wacky adventures off-screen, according to goodyverse Anthony is a badass stoic cyborg and every badass stoic cyborg needs a snarky wolf-fox-teddy bear-demon to complete the buddy-cop pair but it is far more likely that Anthony would just stuff Renard into a drawer and I do not want to think about worse possibilities.
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madragoran
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"If he trully does hurt you, I will rend the flesh from his bones on your word"
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Post by madragoran on Apr 23, 2015 8:23:22 GMT
Two pages ago Kat was holding Rey with both hands. One page ago she had one hand free to wipe her tears. On this page she has both hands free and is seen ducking into her bedroom to get a radio. I am going to hope that she stuffed Renard into a pocket while distracting Annie with tears, and then hid him in her room. Yes please! Although I am one of the people who wanted a swift resolution of the crisis via Kat the Divine Angel, there is a point to her going slow too [my inner dragon resents this statement]
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Post by artezzatrigger on Apr 23, 2015 8:53:13 GMT
I'm going with the reading that the "it" they're dealing with "one step at a time" includes Renard's situation. Having said that, yes, it would've been a lot more reassuring* if everything she said immediately after that had to do with Renard. But it seems she is, in this moment, prioritizing research (finding out where Annie is going) and maintaining future communication (remembering and retrieving the walkie-talkie). I wasn't planning to post anything in this thread since its hard to tell where Kat is going with this, but this post gave me an idea. What if, to parallel Anthony, Kat will deal with these issues in the same order? First the year-repeating induced isolation (via walkie-talky), then the forest situation, then Renard? I haven't the faintest clue how Kat could help with the forest, other than encouraging Annie to visit the forest-turned-human students, but she could convince Annie to help Renard via some loophole with the contract of ownership. Either through some elaborate, highly specific command that prevents breaking the contract ("obey Anthony as long as it doesn't conflict with my own orders or your own morals" or something), or passing the ownership to Kat, they could still hand off Renard to Anthony, with Renard feigning obedience.
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Post by feraldog on Apr 23, 2015 9:31:32 GMT
You know what, Refugee? Of course we understand. A lot of us here see this as a bad thing, given what little we have been shown of their relationship is negative from everyone's view but Annie herself, and even she has her doubts. By good gosh golly, I do wonder where all those abandonment issues of Annie's come from.
Surely not from the cold and distant figure who may as well have been dead as her mother for all the communication he's had with her over the past few years.
If I may quote another series: It's "hunting grief to hope". From the indirect characterization prior to this chapter, and the very direct characterization this chapter, I'd be beyond shocked if it turned out that Anthony is the good and worthy father you seem determined to make him. A phone call from a loved one should not cause a mental breakdown; this goes quintuple for their physical presence. We have a low in-universe bar for Anthony to get over to be considered a decent father figure, and that bar is Ysengrin! Yes, up to this point the human-hating servant of Coyote who has fits of homicidal rage due to magical dementia has been a better father figure than Anthony Carver. Wow. How unreasonable it is for the reader to expect Anthony to lift his goddamn feet (without kicking anyone!) and be parent. Anthony has no problem dropping off the face of the earth without warning and reappearing at his whim. Does it even matter to him that this upsets other people? I think not, he certainly sees no problem with suddenly cutting contact with his own child less than a month after the death of his wife, with no explanation whatsoever. He didn't even have meaningful contact with her until he suddenly became a teacher at the Court several years later. I'd say Annie pouring her love out to this man is tantamount to pouring it down a drain, and it's unfortunate she doesn't see it herself, because he treats her as an inconvenience at best.
Or crawling out of that Egyptian river will make her a stronger person. A single day with him mashed the reset button on her so hard it cracked, and this is not the first time contact from him provoked such a worrying emotional reaction from Antimony.
Annie flourished in his absence. She made friends, learned about her family background, and (on the etheric side of things) is moving up in the world. Anthony does not care about her progress because he thinks it is not worth his time, which appears to include her time. Yes Annie should have been punished for her cheating. I don't think anybody has said she shouldn't, and I know I was waiting for that shoe to drop for a long time. However, there is a right way and a wrong way to handle something like that. Deliberate and calculated public humiliation, followed by immediate isolation from her peers? Absolute rejection of her work and life outside of classes? Very wrong. Hell, he could still have held her back a year and made her move out of the Year 10 dorms without making a production of it. It looks like her cheating was a convenient excuse for him to take control- if it really was concern over academics, the punishment could have ended there. Still harsh, and I'm sure some might still argue it would have been cruel, but it would at least still fit the crime.
As for Renard's freedom, you were Tony's biggest supporter- stopping just an inch or so short of saying he could do no wrong and everyone else is clearly misunderstanding the whole thing, clearly all whiny underdeveloped teenagers, clearly being overemotional and jumping to conclusions, because Annie is too rebellious and deserved what she got no matter what- until it actually looked like Annie was going to follow through with this particular command!
The answers to the questions will not likely be the bridge-building you (seem to) hope for and consider Annie's job. Because as we all know, the minor who doubts her surviving parent even loves her is the one who ought to be repairing the broken relationship. Expecting the man who broke it in the first place to even try is unreasonable. If there ever is a reconciliation between these two, the first steps are Anthony's alone.
So, whose fault is it she's spending all that energy? The answer is not "Annie".
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Post by peachpie on Apr 23, 2015 9:52:15 GMT
Just a little side thing, but the closeup of Annie's hair in panel two breaks my heart that much further. I have the exact same sharp/ragged edge and shape to my hair - that's not a professional cut, that hair was pulled into a tight ponytail at the base of the neck and hacked off by a wrong-handed amateur. Mine was voluntary and for fun but... Anthony sheared her! Or she did it herself. (I whacked my own hair short just the way you describe once. Of course, I'm also a guy so the standards may be lower.) Not that either way it happened is good for her here. It actually would not surprise me if she did it herself under his orders, same as washing off the makeup. The key to how he's breaking her seems to be by making her relinquish everything rather than by taking it away from her. I think the testing point hasn't come yet. Neither girl seems to realize yet that Anthony is totally and obviously going to forbid contact between them - it's like the terrible unthinkable thing that could never happen. Like everything else taken from her so far Annie will either have to choose to relinquish Kat or (in her eyes at least) lose her father, and I'm really really hoping this page is foreshadowing that she'll finally make the right choice.
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Trism
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Blink and you'll miss it.
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Post by Trism on Apr 23, 2015 11:16:48 GMT
I'm still holding out, against hope, that Kat leaves Annie here, goes to visit her parents who are like "How was your day." And Kat says "Oh rough, Mr Carver taking Annie out of class was so crazy!" And then Anja is like "LUL WAT ANTHONY IS HERE?!?" And they rush back and all Annie's stuff is gone and No one actually knew Anthony was there....
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quark
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Post by quark on Apr 23, 2015 12:13:34 GMT
I'm still holding out, against hope, that Kat leaves Annie here, goes to visit her parents who are like "How was your day." And Kat says "Oh rough, Mr Carver taking Annie out of class was so crazy!" And then Anja is like "LUL WAT ANTHONY IS HERE?!?" And they rush back and all Annie's stuff is gone and No one actually knew Anthony was there.... That would actually pretty cool. I hope it works that way, since it means that the Donlans/Eglamore are actually on Antimony's side, and not in silent agreement with Anthony. Just a little side thing, but the closeup of Annie's hair in panel two breaks my heart that much further. I have the exact same sharp/ragged edge and shape to my hair - that's not a professional cut, that hair was pulled into a tight ponytail at the base of the neck and hacked off by a wrong-handed amateur. Mine was voluntary and for fun but... Anthony sheared her! Thank you for that observation. Whether she did it by herself or if it's Anthony's doing... it adds another layer of heartbreaking detail. I just had another (not-as-good) thought cross my mind. The walkie-talkie can text, which is great for sneaky plan-making, but it is also impossible to tell who wrote the message, especially if you're not used to their style of writing text messages. Annie and Anthony have very similar ways of expressing themselves if under stress. I hope this doesn't get used to trap Kat (Anthony would love another bit of leverage against Annie; I found it very strange that he would want to punish her for knowing of Antimony's cheating).
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elebenty
Junior Member
Better than bubble wrap.
Posts: 83
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Post by elebenty on Apr 23, 2015 14:23:21 GMT
I'm still holding out, against hope, that Kat leaves Annie here, goes to visit her parents who are like "How was your day." And Kat says "Oh rough, Mr Carver taking Annie out of class was so crazy!" And then Anja is like "LUL WAT ANTHONY IS HERE?!?" And they rush back and all Annie's stuff is gone and No one actually knew Anthony was there.... I do want her parents in this as soon as possible, but I don't want her to leave Annie alone. Since the girls are in Kat's apartment, I hope Kat stays for the entire time that Annie is there (and hopefully enlists some robotic help in following Annie to her new room.) I just had another (not-as-good) thought cross my mind. The walkie-talkie can text, which is great for sneaky plan-making, but it is also impossible to tell who wrote the message, especially if you're not used to their style of writing text messages. Annie and Anthony have very similar ways of expressing themselves if under stress. That would not be good. I'm still holding out hope that what hajo suggested comes to pass. I think it will give Reynard a chance to act. He was forbidden to speak, but with that radio, he could send text I found it very strange that he would want to punish her for knowing of Antimony's cheating. This (albeit tiny bit) of his outburst I understand. If she knew Antimony was cheating, she was complicit: aiding and abetting.
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freeman
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That's what I said: blåkläder!
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Post by freeman on Apr 23, 2015 15:57:28 GMT
I can't tell if the way the line of her mouth is drawn is a mistake or on purpose as another reference to the "Divine" mask. On a lighter note, this really looks like you gave Annie anime-nosebleed*. mindfirmlyinthegutter.png (248.76 KB) *(Are anime-nosebleeds uncountable?)
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Sadie
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I eat food and sleep in a horizontal position.
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Post by Sadie on Apr 23, 2015 16:01:47 GMT
I can't tell if the way the line of her mouth is drawn is a mistake or on purpose as another reference to the "Divine" mask. On a lighter note, this really looks like you gave Annie anime-nosebleed*. View Attachment*(Are anime-nosebleeds uncountable?) A masterpiece.
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Post by machival on Apr 23, 2015 16:04:04 GMT
I can't tell if the way the line of her mouth is drawn is a mistake or on purpose as another reference to the "Divine" mask. On a lighter note, this really looks like you gave Annie anime-nosebleed*. *(Are anime-nosebleeds uncountable?) I guess Antimony must have seen senpai (which, given the cast of characters, would be either parley or smitty) in a swimsuit.
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freeman
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That's what I said: blåkläder!
Posts: 237
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Post by freeman on Apr 23, 2015 16:14:02 GMT
Oh dear, I broke the link. Sorry!
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Post by stclair on Apr 23, 2015 16:35:58 GMT
Yeah, I don't think we'll even get Anthony answering the radio - just a page with him noticing it and telling her to throw it away or doing it himself. And then, the chapter end symbol.
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Post by OrzBrain on Apr 23, 2015 16:48:16 GMT
I hope that radio automatically takes and transmits video and sound recordings of everything around it, and has a remote activated flash bomb/area of effect stun feature. Otherwise I think Kat's being a bit, er, meh here. I mean, best friend's feelings vs enslavement of another sentient by a possible jealous monster? Caved kinda quick there, don't you think?
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Post by pxc on Apr 23, 2015 17:03:22 GMT
Two pages ago Kat was holding Rey with both hands. One page ago she had one hand free to wipe her tears. On this page she has both hands free and is seen ducking into her bedroom to get a radio. I am going to hope that she stuffed Renard into a pocket while distracting Annie with tears, and then hid him in her room. Good catch. Not showing where she put Rey down seems pretty intentional.
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Post by antiyonder on Apr 23, 2015 17:17:01 GMT
I'm still holding out, against hope, that Kat leaves Annie here, goes to visit her parents who are like "How was your day." And Kat says "Oh rough, Mr Carver taking Annie out of class was so crazy!" And then Anja is like "LUL WAT ANTHONY IS HERE?!?" And they rush back and all Annie's stuff is gone and No one actually knew Anthony was there.... That would actually pretty cool. I hope it works that way, since it means that the Donlans/Eglamore are actually on Antimony's side, and not in silent agreement with Anthony. Eglamore I can't really say. Anja is still up for debate, but I'm still not sure Don is capable of seeing his friend in a critical light and would need to observe something drastic and obvious to convince him that Anthony is in the wrong.
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Sadie
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Post by Sadie on Apr 23, 2015 18:02:13 GMT
Not just speaking to you here, jocobo, but do folks not understand that Annie loves her Father? That she wants him to love her? That who she loves and why is not ours to judge? (snip) Or crawling out of that Egyptian river will make her a stronger person. Commenting as someone who has cut an abusive parent out of their life, I can say that; It's awful, but doesn't have to destroy you and it doesn't automatically mean you stop loving and caring about the parent in question. That's one of the hard parts to get over. People assume you're acting out of anger or hatred, or because you don't realize how much said parent really does love you, really and isn't that what's important? (Otherwise well-meaning family members are especially prone to this.) It's also more than a single act of seeing past your own denial and realizing you're being treated abusively. You have to accept that you deserve respectful and supportive treatment - and 100% guaranteed, an abusive parent has trained you to believe that you don't. ("I brought this on myself.") You have to accept that your mental, emotional, and physical well-being are more important than being obedient, affectionate, and present for your parent. You have to accept that everything this parent has taught you or instilled in you is suspect. There are some tough mountains to climb. Real-world people spend decades at it, though I suspect the magic of storytelling would streamline the process for Annie. If there ever is a reconciliation between these two, the first steps are Anthony's alone. Pretty much!
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chaosvii
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I absolutely did not expect this!
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Post by chaosvii on Apr 23, 2015 18:29:14 GMT
As a general rule, that is considered a poor debate tactic, a poor contribution to discussion or a positive community and is over-all rather rude. against the background of people screaming for Anthony's blood since the start of the chapter, and some directly insisting that Antimony should be the one to draw it. To say nothing of people not just presuming Anthony's guilt, but guilty of the worst possible things, charges based on little more than dislike for him personally, or because Everybody's Favorite Spunky Girl had her feelings hurt. [...] I'm getting a bit touchy about people talking in military terms like "counter-offensive". Just so you know, your portrayal of the Only Sane Man on the internet via " Hey guys let's maybe stop forming an angry lynch mob over a character that is playing the role of antagonist and focus on X, Y, Z rather than fanning the flames of hostility well above rabid levels" in reply to the forum's general cathartic frustration and homicidal word choice is probably the only thing that I find to be a more fun byproduct than Jim North's version of the current arc. Prior to this moment, I did not sincerely believe that you saw the Sisyphean task of curbing excessive anger from a fanbase emotionally invested in the characters as anything other than a desire to have a clear headed discussion of the drama that was unfolding. But this admission of being touchy in response to the deluge of threatening language directed at a fictional character leaves me with the impression that you don't find the task as fun as I find it to read. I'm pretty sure you still desire to discuss the stuff that is happening below the surface and have no interest in entertaining a narrative about Annie's father that suggests "Anthony is the biggest jerkbag in the history of jerkbags ohmahgawd I need like 12 tumblr tags involving the word hitler to express my undying rage of that jerkbag" is a valid summation of his character. But it is exactly the sort of response that humanity should expect from people the internet. Especially those who are keen on sharing their emotions about dramatic character-driven fiction with like-minded people. Think of it as a bonding exercise, one that may not reflect well on humanity, but is vastly preferable to directing it at actual people (not that I'm saying that this sort of thing decreases anger at political candidates or anything). So what I'm getting at is encouraging people to stop calling Anthony a jerkbag is a fair position to take. It is also a hilariously impossible thing to sincerely complete. It might not even be a endeavor that achieves satisfactory results. And given the billions of ways there are to speculate how much more of a jerkbag Anthony could conceivably be, it certainly is not a task worth taking so seriously such that you start misrepresenting unpleasant and emotive language as hate-driven panic and a call to arms. Yes there is going to be hate driven panic & calls to arms on the internet over fictional characters, but no the anger towards Anthony is not worth treating as an example of [insert violent retribution related thing that is worth worrying about] nor a sign that the forum is at risk of only expressing anger toward Anthony and discussing little else. People are going to say crazy things in order to express our crazy feelings that this story invokes in us though the painful events that occur to Antimony. Then we will either discuss our crazy feelings and perhaps even rationalize them by imagining all the plausible & implausible jerkbaggery that Anthony could have hypothetically done, or talk about the other intriguing stuff regardless of how worked up we are about Anthony. I find it to be way more in keeping with clear headed discussion to focus on bringing up the other intriguing stuff than criticizing the emotional behavior of any given fan in the context of a fanbase that is acting way more crazy than that individual fan is acting. Granted, it's really fun to criticize that behavior, it's really straightforward to criticize that behavior, but it's not in keeping with discussion of "Ooo! Is Rey going to use that text function on the two-way radio?" or "Oh wow, Kat is choosing to keep it together for Annie, she's like an Angel (hur-hurr)" or "So is Kat going to help Annie by spurring her on, or is she going to direct the confrontation away from Annie?" or "Is she going to do something that makes this all worse for a little while?"
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Post by Refugee on Apr 23, 2015 18:39:33 GMT
I'd be beyond shocked if it turned out that Anthony is the good and worthy father you seem determined to make him. ... you were Tony's biggest supporter- stopping just an inch or so short of saying he could do no wrong and everyone else is clearly misunderstanding the whole thing... No. As I said more than once, I don't like Anthony, nor do I think he's a good father. I've even avoided using the word "Dad" to refer to him; Anthony has not earned that title. I've said that even for me, Anthony's demand that Annie give up Renard was wrong, and went beyond what was reasonable for her cheating offense. Something fishy about that.... What I have railed against is jumping to conclusions, presuming specific actions and motives that Tom has hinted at, but not revealed to us. Now, it may well turn out that everyone else is right, and that Anthony is the monster he seems to be. Fine; I can live with that. But I'd rather wait until it is revealed. === As to Annie's love: If there is any chance to save love, with Annie or anyone else, I'd far rather see that than see it torn out, which seems to leave bleeding wounds that do not heal well. Annie may well have to come to grips with the fact that her Father will never be able to love her back. If the situation is anything like what it appears, she may well have to defy him, certainly in regards to Renard. Still, Annie's had a lot of practice seeing powerful, dangerous beings as potential friends and allies. In my several re-readings of the entire story up to this chapter over the last few weeks, I am impressed again and again with Annie's independence, strength, and resilience. Her reflex is to kindness; her whole character wells up from a loving heart. So many commenters and forumites have expressed anger, even hatred, towards Anthony. Rather than evidence, people have looked for excuses to punish him, to take Annie away from him, even to kill him. They have suggested that Coyote, the Court, the Donlans, Eglamore, even Kat and Renard, intervene to ensure, not just Antimony's safety, but that Anthony is served his just desserts. But judgement, punishment, anger, and vengeance are not Antimony's way. She seeks always to understand, to heal, to find the capacity for love in everyone she meets. I pray that Annie will never go to her Father, fire blazing forth, pronounce her terrible judgement upon him, declare him unfit, and cast him out of her life. That she will disdain the urge to make him suffer what she has suffered. It is true that she must save Renard from him. It is true she must accept that she will never meet his expectations. He will never be able to love her as she loves him. She must face her own dependence on a man who never existed, and less so after his wife and the mother of his child died. But no one can act for her. No one should seek vengeance against Anthony in Antimony's name. No one should punish him for his injuries to her. Those are all things she must decide to do herself, if they are to be done at all. Certainly, no one should hate Anthony on Annie's behalf. Somehow, for all of this to be worthwhile, Annie must forgive her Daddy, because she loves him.
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Post by antiyonder on Apr 23, 2015 19:01:31 GMT
The answers to the questions will not likely be the bridge-building you (seem to) hope for and consider Annie's job. Because as we all know, the minor who doubts her surviving parent even loves her is the one who ought to be repairing the broken relationship. Expecting the man who broke it in the first place to even try is unreasonable. If there ever is a reconciliation between these two, the first steps are Anthony's alone. This. But then one problem I tend to see with defenses made for Anthony is the conception towards criticism. That is to say, people speaking up for the character claim that criticism is okay by them as long as it stays calm and civilized, but there's that whole "I'm waiting until we see more before passing judgement" spiel. I mean: 1. Yeah, we might need to know more about him before declaring him a lost cause, but the same holds true before declaring him to be the ultimate humanitarian, and yet I see people with the "wait and see" stance kind of going back on their suggestion for the latter. 2. Even if we could all agree to waiting before deciding whether he's scum or a humanitarian, criticism isn't something that needs to be reserved. A point that I feel that posters defending Anthony don't understand is that criticism doesn't have to be something reserved for the worst of humanity. Now lets say that the story is aiming for Anthony to ultimately be a good person who's made questionable choices. Does him being a potential good person mean that he can't be called out on his choices?
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Sadie
Full Member
I eat food and sleep in a horizontal position.
Posts: 146
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Post by Sadie on Apr 23, 2015 19:07:04 GMT
I'm going with the reading that the "it" they're dealing with "one step at a time" includes Renard's situation. Having said that, yes, it would've been a lot more reassuring* if everything she said immediately after that had to do with Renard. But it seems she is, in this moment, prioritizing research (finding out where Annie is going) and maintaining future communication (remembering and retrieving the walkie-talkie). I wasn't planning to post anything in this thread since its hard to tell where Kat is going with this, but this post gave me an idea. What if, to parallel Anthony, Kat will deal with these issues in the same order? First the year-repeating induced isolation (via walkie-talky), then the forest situation, then Renard? That would certainly make for a good thematic set-up! I really like the theory of Annie giving Renard to Kat entirely, if she doesn't straight out set him free. At the moment, I'm not yet sold on her doing either, and think it's much more likely she'll go the loophole route as you suggest. I think Parley and Smitty are needed for back-up with the Forest problem.
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