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Post by eyemyself on Jul 11, 2014 15:50:06 GMT
So I've been doing a fair amount of pondering about the historical timeline around these four characters lately. We know Surma used to date Eggers but ended up with Anthony before leaving the court. We know she "tricked" Rey into coming to the court before she left by letting him believe she returned his feelings. We don't know if she was seeing Eggers, Anthony, or unattached at that point but presumably she was already court medium when it happened. Surma's actions have so much bearing on the comic and yet she remains a mystery. (Why didn't she tell her daughter about their fire elemental heritage? Presumably she learned about her own ancestry growing up, presumably she knew Annie would need learn eventually, why deny your daughter basic information about herself, knowing you are dying and not knowing when, how, or who would finally clue her in to why she was different?)/rant Ok, back to the issue at hand. In no particular order (because we don't know the order) the events we know happened: - Surma is offered the position of Court Medium.
- Eggers leaves the court for some reason. (Training?)
- Surma befriends Rey and he becomes attached to her.
- Surma breaks up with Eggers.
- Surma tricks Rey into thinking that she returns his affection.
- Rey asks Coyote for the power to take other bodies.
- Surma starts dating Anthony.
- Rey takes Daniel's body and comes to the court.
- Eggers returns to court.
- Eggers bonds with Sivo.
- Rey takes Sivo's body.
- Rey is captured and imprisoned.
- Surma and Anthony leave the court together.
- Surma gives birth to Antimony, her child by Anthony.
I am sure I am missing some stuff here. Thoughts? |
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Post by fish on Jul 11, 2014 20:47:45 GMT
Minor events I would add:
-Surma gives Eggers a knife as a present.
(James, with love, Surma)
-Surma cuts her hair.
(We know haircuts can have some significance, Kat's for example, and at one point Surma had very short hair. That always made me wonder...)
This is an interesting puzzle with a lot of pieces. I'm always looking forward to further developments.
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Jul 12, 2014 1:15:01 GMT
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Post by eyemyself on Jul 12, 2014 14:04:23 GMT
Oooooh, I'd forgotten that Kat's parents left the court for awhile before returning to become teachers! The parents pasts are just so intriguing, and thus far unexplained. |
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Post by keef on Jul 12, 2014 23:42:17 GMT
These things must be happening in a short time: - Surma tricks Rey into thinking that she returns his affection.
- Rey asks Coyote for the power to take other bodies.
- Rey takes Daniel's body and comes to the court.
- Eggers returns to court. (bringing Sivo)
- Rey takes Sivo's body.
Exact dates are unimportant, but just to give myself some solid ground I assume Antimony arrives at the court in 2007*, Word of Tom is she was 12 at the time, so lets say she was born in 1995.
*Metal Gear Solid 4 was released in 2008, and this page is set after the second school year starts.[/quote][/ul] In Ties the five of them are around 15, Surma and James don't seem to be dating yet, James starts training. Only a few years later Surma meets Rey for the first time, so she is probably the Medium at the time. Same age as Andrew now? In Fangs of Summertime, Coyote thinks Annie is James' daughter, so the breakup was probably just before Surma and Anthony left. - Rey takes Sivo's body.
- Rey is captured and imprisoned.
That's always been a big question to me, how long did Renard live in Sivo's body before he was caught. I've been looking for a way to make a timeline online, no luck so far. Hello and welcome Jelly Jellybean ! |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Jul 13, 2014 1:24:09 GMT
[/a]. [/ul][/quote]In your link, Tom said that Surma was in the mid to late thirties when she died. Antimony went to the Court shortly after Surma died and first year students are 11 to 12 years old. So Surma would have been in her mid twenties when she gave birth to Antimony. If you tie that to the same years, then all the parents were born sometime around 1970. Thanks for the welcome! I need to work on an avatar. |
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Post by eyemyself on Jul 13, 2014 4:25:19 GMT
These things must be happening in a short time: - Surma tricks Rey into thinking that she returns his affection.
- Rey asks Coyote for the power to take other bodies.
- Rey takes Daniel's body and comes to the court.
- Eggers returns to court. (bringing Sivo)
- Rey takes Sivo's body.
Exact dates are unimportant, but just to give myself some solid ground I assume Antimony arrives at the court in 2007*, Word of Tom is she was 12 at the time, so lets say she was born in 1995.
*Metal Gear Solid 4 was released in 2008, and this page is set after the second school year starts.[/a]. [/ul] In Ties the five of them are around 15, Surma and James don't seem to be dating yet, James starts training. Only a few years later Surma meets Rey for the first time, so she is probably the Medium at the time. Same age as Andrew now? In Fangs of Summertime, Coyote thinks Annie is James' daughter, so the breakup was probably just before Surma and Anthony left. - Rey takes Sivo's body.
- Rey is captured and imprisoned.
That's always been a big question to me, how long did Renard live in Sivo's body before he was caught. I've been looking for a way to make timeline online, no luck so far. Hello and welcome Jelly Jellybean ! [/quote] For some reason it has never clicked for me that Coyote knew about Surma and Jimmy Jims... but not Surma and Anthony or Surma's departure and yet Rey was under the impression that Surma was falling for him. Oh what a tangled web. |
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Post by keef on Jul 13, 2014 8:05:02 GMT
[/a]. [/ul][/quote]In your link, Tom said that Surma was in the mid to late thirties when she died. Antimony went to the Court shortly after Surma died and first year students are 11 to 12 years old. So Surma would have been in her mid twenties when she gave birth to Antimony. If you tie that to the same years, then all the parents were born sometime around 1970.[/quote] You are completely right. Pretty stupid, I've must have been half asleep. I'll edit it. There are some avatar threads on the forum, but it's more fun to make them yourself.  |
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Post by TBeholder on Jul 13, 2014 8:21:50 GMT
For some reason it has never clicked for me that Coyote knew about Surma and Jimmy Jims... but not Surma and Anthony or Surma's departure and yet Rey was under the impression that Surma was falling for him. Oh what a tangled web. And given that Surma told Annie about Coyote, but avoided any mention of Renard... I see a great shouting match and tempers clashing. |
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Post by eyemyself on Jul 13, 2014 11:03:25 GMT
Surma omitted a lot of key information from her daughter before sending her off to the court upon her death.
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Post by Per on Jul 13, 2014 13:58:33 GMT
I think that even if we decide to extract lore from bonus pages the inclusion of Rise of the Boxbots Guns of the Patriots should be taken as an example of Comic Book Time rather than an actual datestamp, that is, even if the comic doesn't proceed in real time it allows itself the use of contemporary references. Since the comic obviously does not go in real time, the only way the page and MGS4 could be taken to coincide is if we say that's the one and only point where the two timelines showed the same date, which seems highly unlikely.
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Post by keef on Jul 13, 2014 18:38:43 GMT
I think that even if we decide to extract lore from bonus pages the inclusion of Rise of the Boxbots Guns of the Patriots should be taken as an example of Comic Book Time rather than an actual datestamp, that is, even if the comic doesn't proceed in real time it allows itself the use of contemporary references. Since the comic obviously does not go in real time, the only way the page and MGS4 could be taken to coincide is if we say that's the one and only point where the two timelines showed the same date, which seems highly unlikely. Exact dates are unimportant.... |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Jul 13, 2014 20:22:19 GMT
Surma omitted a lot of key information from her daughter before sending her off to the court upon her death. I have to believe that we will learn more about what Surma revealed more to Antimony before she died. What has been revealed in the first 48 chapters really leads me to wonder how Surma could be such lousy mother. Surma, I know Antimony was very young, but why didn't you tell Antimony that... - We are part fire elemental- I am passing my life to you and, as much as I want to stay with you longer, I accept this so you can have your life - You will pass your life to your child just as I pass my life to you - You will need to teach your daughter what she is and what will happen to her Given Surma's apparent parental shortfalls, I really wonder what happened to Surma's mother. I've read speculation that maybe Surma would have died shortly after giving birth if not for Anthony's help. Maybe Surma's mother didn't live long enough to explain anything or provide an example of how to handle the inevitable. |
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Post by keef on Jul 13, 2014 21:19:57 GMT
Maybe Surma's mother didn't live long enough to explain anything or provide an example of how to handle the inevitable. In that case Coyote might have been the one explaining things to her. |
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Post by warrl on Jul 13, 2014 23:13:30 GMT
Surma omitted a lot of key information from her daughter before sending her off to the court upon her death. I have to believe that we will learn more about what Surma revealed more to Antimony before she died. What has been revealed in the first 48 chapters really leads me to wonder how Surma could be such lousy mother. Surma, I know Antimony was very young, but why didn't you tell Antimony that... - We are part fire elemental- I am passing my life to you and, as much as I want to stay with you longer, I accept this so you can have your life - You will pass your life to your child just as I pass my life to you - You will need to teach your daughter what she is and what will happen to her Given Surma's apparent parental shortfalls, I really wonder what happened to Surma's mother. I've read speculation that maybe Surma would have died shortly after giving birth if not for Anthony's help. Maybe Surma's mother didn't live long enough to explain anything or provide an example of how to handle the inevitable. I'd argue that we need to at least consider the possible pitfalls in telling a child that she's a master of fire. A child with such information WOULD play with fire, with inadequate consideration of risks to people and things around her, and then would be a risk of a literally-fiery outburst of temper. Surma did make arrangements for Annie to be put in close and steady contact with people who are aware of her nature and competent to judge her maturity. I doubt that she was expecting Reynardine to get involved. |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Jul 14, 2014 12:05:17 GMT
In that case Coyote might have been the one explaining things to her. That would make for an interesting flash back: Coyote: "When a fire head girl loves herself very much ...." * * I am partial to the speculation that human / fire elemental hybrids procreate by spontaneous pregnancy, just because it would make them even more unique. Seriously though, we know Surma (and her friends) learned the basics at some point: - Surma developed her aetheric talents, so I think it is safe to assume she knew she was part fire elemental. - Everyone knew Surma would die if she had a child. ** ** They may not have known the specifics of how she would get pregnant, leaving a crack open for that spontaneous pregnancy speculation. |
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Post by Per on Jul 14, 2014 12:19:11 GMT
Exact dates are unimportant.... I'm not questioning exact dates, I'm questioning a year. The whole year of 2008. Did it really take place |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Jul 14, 2014 12:31:51 GMT
Surma did make arrangements for Annie to be put in close and steady contact with people who are aware of her nature and competent to judge her maturity. True. But Antimony learned that she was a fire elemental from Coyote and learned that her mother passed her life to her from Reynard. And we haven't seen anyone talk to Antimony about what may happen to her when she has a child. Based on how things have gone, Ys may end up teaching Antimony about the birds and bees. I don't understand why Surma doesn't appear to do have done more to set Anja and Donald up as Antimony's god parents (knowing Anthony really wasn't single-father material). I understand that the split between Surma and the Court was not amicable. But even if Surma wouldn't go to the Court, Anja and Donald could have visited Surma and Antimony could have gotten to know and trust them. (Sorry for the two separate posts. I haven't figured out how to quote two different posts in the same reply) |
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Post by keef on Jul 14, 2014 16:57:35 GMT
(Sorry for the two separate posts. I haven't figured out how to quote two different posts in the same reply) Either use the "gear" button to select the posts you want to reply to, or open a few tabs and cut and paste, or write your second reply, cut it, edit your earlier post and paste. |
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Post by eyemyself on Jul 14, 2014 17:03:17 GMT
There is a lot we actually don't know about the circumstances of Surma and Anthony leaving the court: when exactly it happened, why it happened, if it was amicable or not, if they left together or met up again after leaving. We do know that Surma was not in contact with Antja, Donald, or James after she left the court and they didn't know she was in the hospital but we don't know if Good Hope was the first place she went when she left. Things we do know for certain: - Surma and Antja were both assigned to Chester before the court decided they "made a mistake" and moved them to Queslett.
- Surma and Antja were bullied by other students for their etheric abilities.
- Surma met Rey when she was in her mid to late teens.
- Surma had a reputation for having a temper when she was young.
- Surma did not get along with Jones.
- Surma dated Eggers at least until he left the court for training.
- Surma was chosen as court medium.
- Surma did not tell Annie about a number of things: Her fire elemental ancestry and fire related powers, Rey, that Coyote was more than just a story, why she was dying, that she would be sent to the same school her mother attended and later worked at a medium, etc...
- Surma and all of her friends knew she would die when she had a child.
- Surma was in her early 20s when Antimony was born.
- The court did not start looking for a replacement medium until Surma was dead.
- Surma arranged to send Antimony to Gunnerkrigg upon her death despite not telling her anything about what to expect.
- Surma passed on in her mid-thirties.
- Anthony was convinced he could save Surma's life through medical science.
- Antja, Jones, and Coyote all notice that Antimony's stoic nature is reminiscent of her father.
Things we can speculate: - The court did not have any contact with the forest while Surma was gone.
- Surma learned more about her etheric abilities at a younger age than Antimony did.
- Antimony never really got to know who her mother was outside of their relationship to each other.
I think many of us, myself included, have been working under the assumption that Surma's departure from the court had something to do with Rey's capture. I'm not sure about this any more... Surma is seen looking frighted and running from Rey when he reveals himself in Daniel's body. She does not appear to be pictured in the group facing off against him in the next panel but that could be because it was decided that it would be best for her not to be involved for any of a number of reasons. I've been wondering if her departure from the court had less to do with Rey and more to do with her break-up with Eggers and subsequent attachment to Anthony. Conceivably, Annie was conceived while Surma was still at the court and she and Anthony left because he was so sure he could cure her if he had the right resources. |
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Post by warrl on Jul 14, 2014 19:22:49 GMT
Surma did make arrangements for Annie to be put in close and steady contact with people who are aware of her nature and competent to judge her maturity. True. But Antimony learned that she was a fire elemental from Coyote and learned that her mother passed her life to her from Reynard. I imagine that Surma was thinking more in terms of Anja, Donald, James, and perhaps Jones. Coyote being involved (and, even more so, Reynard) was not expected. Annie got the story from the two canids at a somewhat younger age than she really needed it for the usual reasons, and perhaps a touch younger than was appropriate based on her maturity. (Not to mention that stuff like what Reynard told her seriously shouldn't be learned in the middle of a rather nasty verbal fight.) On boards that don't support multi-quote, I right-click the "Quote" button and select "Open in new tab". Then I can copy-paste from one such tab to another. |
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Post by eyemyself on Jul 14, 2014 20:13:57 GMT
True. But Antimony learned that she was a fire elemental from Coyote and learned that her mother passed her life to her from Reynard. I imagine that Surma was thinking more in terms of Anja, Donald, James, and perhaps Jones. Coyote being involved (and, even more so, Reynard) was not expected. Annie got the story from the two canids at a somewhat younger age than she really needed it for the usual reasons, and perhaps a touch younger than was appropriate based on her maturity. (Not to mention that stuff like what Reynard told her seriously shouldn't be learned in the middle of a rather nasty verbal fight.) On boards that don't support multi-quote, I right-click the "Quote" button and select "Open in new tab". Then I can copy-paste from one such tab to another. The fact that Antja, Donald, and James were old friends of Surma's and could possibly be turned to for guidance and support once you go to school at Gunnerkrigg Court (or that Surma knew them at all) was part of the information curiously left out of "things Surma might have wanted to mention to her daughter before dying and sending her off to a strange place where she knows no one." For that matter Anthony could have mentioned something to Annie - maybe Surma assumed he would and the lack of basic info about "oh hey, these people are friendly - you can probably trust them if you need anything" falls on his shoulders. Then again, Anthony is not exactly known for his social skills. Surma might have had rose colored glasses about his social competence and common sense in regards to giving his daughter basic information about adults she could trust at her new school. |
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