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Post by sleepcircle on Mar 4, 2014 23:27:18 GMT
i don't know if you are responding to my post but I think it is very valid to feel upset. I am not saying don't express your feelings, but I am saying trying to express them as constructively and peacefully as possible.
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eskhn
Full Member
You like 'em? Huh? You like 'em?
Posts: 167
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Post by eskhn on Mar 4, 2014 23:27:43 GMT
Do you think it's not valid to feel upset that a good person is being bullied by a petty, attention-seeking mob? Of course it's valid, but it's not productive right now.
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Post by fish on Mar 4, 2014 23:31:32 GMT
Do you think it's not valid to feel upset that a good person is being bullied by a petty, attention-seeking mob? Oh, no, I didn't mean it that way! I feel pretty angry myself, I've been on edge the whole day. It's crazy how protective I feel of Tom. I just wanted to make clear: Tom did make a mistake, his apology was not just there to please the mob (I appreciate him even more now because of it). And were this any other place than the internet, the matter would have long been settled. But no, we can't have that on the internet now, can we. Everything else about this just makes me furious, I can't calm down, how do I calm down!
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Post by Rasselas on Mar 4, 2014 23:37:40 GMT
Most of the posts in this thread have restored my faith in humanity. You guys have expressed it much better than I could. I hope it helps Tom even a little bit.
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Post by thedoomblahsong on Mar 5, 2014 0:28:19 GMT
The thing Tom is apologizing for is NOT the silly joke on twitter. We can all agree that it was a rather harmless one. And the initial reaction to that tweet was quite meek as well. Some people were confused and asked for clarification. Now Tom, for some reason, retweeted those questions and comments and made those people susceptible to transphobic harassment (I don't know, if they were really harassed or not). And that is really not a nice thing to someone. But Tom, being the person that he is, realized the problem in his actions and apologized profoundly. Tom did NOT make anyone susceptible to transphobic harassment. Those were comments to his own tweet. Retweeting them wasn't going to bring them to the attention of anybody new. Retweeting a comment in a vaguely dismissive way (all he wrote was "the internet is an incredible place" or something similar) is light years off from inviting harassment. If anybody DID harass those commenters, they did so on their own initiative, and probably would still have done so even if there never were any retweets. These were comments in a public forum. Anyone who reads them is going to reach their own conclusion. Retweeting comments to your own tweets does not make the authors 'susceptible' to squat, it is a way of responding to comments, and I think Tom's choice of response was entirely reasonable in context. Tom, I don't know how you feel. It may be true that you feel deeply responsible for hurting people and may resent us for downplaying what you did. If so, I can relate to that. Nevertheless, I have to insist that, no matter how one analyzes this situation, your apology makes up for any hurt you may have caused. People were hurt when they saw your tweet, and by the way you handled the situation afterwards. This is totally understandable, given that many of them face transphobia every day, and it suddenly appears to them that you - someone they respect and admire - shares this ignorance. But I know that if those people are halfway reasonable, they have already forgiven you. You have shown very clearly that you are sensitive to the hardships of the transgender community, and that you deeply regret having hurt any among them. Please forgive yourself Tom.
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Post by nero on Mar 5, 2014 0:30:08 GMT
I'm thankful to Tom for his comic and the forum, to witness all of you discussing so calmly and supporting him.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2014 1:21:02 GMT
Hey Tom, I'd like to give you my support here as well.
What I've always admired is your ability to create warm, compelling images from seemingly familiar surroundings. Objects and landscapes look as though they've been part of other people's life; they are never freshly-made stage props from which »narrative purpose« oozes. Whether it's Mr. Donlan helping Annie to get better — by breaking into a warehouse, launching a supply rocket and hanging out on a nightly rooftop, no less — or Coyote prancing about above a limpid pool in the forest (»my ever-watching eyes, the Sun and the Moon!«), both your sharp narration and playful attention to detail serve to make such scenes irresistible.
There are many beautiful things I would not have discovered so easily, if at all, without your comic. Here's a selection: bismuth crystals, Norse mythology (the stories of Starknad especially), the sheer variety of tropical birds in the world, griseous English streets lined with gas lamps and celadon roofs; and there are others that I've re-discovered. There's that panel in which young Antimony softly touches the hem of her father's robe as he treats her injury: that one made me recall the childish »brawls« with my father in the living-room as well as my first aikido robe, and how strange its heavy cloth had felt to me, and how I had felt like a warrior when I first got it!
I appreciate your work deeply, and wish you all the best!
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Post by eyemyself on Mar 5, 2014 1:53:28 GMT
Now my problem: If I were in Tom's position -feeling guilty and being convinced I deserved to feel that way- every time somebody made a comment like "don't worry, you did nothing wrong" or "you shouldn't need to apologize for something so trivial" or "all those people demanding an apology are [insert insult here]" would make me feel even worse about the whole thing.I don't know if the same is true for Tom, but I would like to ask everybody to pleas stop putting blame on anyone, be it Tom or the people that felt hurt by Tom. This is the point I have been trying to make. All the negativity expressed against the people Tom feels he has hurt by his followers is likely just feeding his feelings of guilt and remorse and exacerbating his depression. One of the things that has become clear to me is that Tom is a highly empathetic person, and empathetic people have a tendency of feeling attacks on others as acutely as if they were attacks on themselves. Please stop with the aggressive language. This thread was created with the express purpose of coming up with ways of communicating to Tom how much we appreciate him and the work he does. Expressing sympathy for his plight is one thing, spewing vitriol about people because you disagree with them is another entirely and it is counter productive. This is something I wish the people who are attacking Tom would read. But it is also something I think that the people who feel like attacking those who are attacking Tom should read. I work in the community building sector and have done a lot of work around social justice, advocacy, harm reduction, and crisis intervention. I have never seen a situation where letting anger turn into lashing out helped people.
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Post by eyemyself on Mar 5, 2014 2:10:14 GMT
Hey Tom, I'd like to give you my support here as well. What I've always admired is your ability to create warm, compelling images from seemingly familiar surroundings. Objects and landscapes look as though they've been part of other people's life; they are never freshly-made stage props from which »narrative purpose« oozes. Whether it's Mr. Donlan helping Annie to get better — by breaking into a warehouse, launching a supply rocket and hanging out on a nightly rooftop, no less — or Coyote prancing about above a limpid pool in the forest (»my ever-watching eyes, the Sun and the Moon!«), both your sharp narration and playful attention to detail serve to make such scenes irresistible. There are many beautiful things I would not have discovered so easily, if at all, without your comic. Here's a selection: bismuth crystals, Norse mythology (the stories of Starknad especially), the sheer variety of tropical birds in the world, griseous English streets lined with gas lamps and celadon roofs; and there are others that I've re-discovered. There's that panel in which young Antimony softly touches the hem of her father's robe as he treats her injury: that one made me recall the childish »brawls« with my father in the living-room as well as my first aikido robe, and how strange its heavy cloth had felt to me, and how I had felt like a warrior when I first got it! I appreciate your work deeply, and wish you all the best! This is beautiful! And so true! Things I love about Gunnerkrigg: The art, oh the art. How it has evolved over time while staying true to itself. How the simple color palate occasionally gives way to incredible complexity. The raw beauty of some of the pages. The story telling. Masterful. Clever. Complex. Believable. I loose myself in the world of Gunnerkrigg so easily. It is a delight to watch the story unfold and I am always eager for the next page. The characters. Tom has created complex, beautifully flawed, multi-dimensional personalities to populate this world of his with and I have found things to love about even the minor characters and cameos. The world. The world of Gunnerkrigg is fascinating! Every new thing we learn builds on what we already know and provides us with another piece of the puzzle. I have enjoyed watching as the mythology unfolds... as we learn more about the ether and the role it plays in how things work... the developing understanding of robot society... the relationship between the beings of the court and the beings of the forest... there is so much history and context built into the comic that it is easy to just slip away to Gunnerkrigg and picture myself there. The hidden references to our own history, mythology, pop culture, etc... The fans... at least here on the forum I have always been impressed by the quality of my fellow fans. Clearly, we all have impeccable taste or we wouldn't be here.
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Post by Gulby on Mar 5, 2014 2:36:42 GMT
Ok. It's 3:25 AM here and I'm very tired and trying to sleep despite the fact that I have a little alien in my belly doing everything to keep me awake, so sorry if I'm not that much understandable or if I'm somewhat unclear.
Now, Tom, if you're reading this : please keep up, cheer up, don't give up !!! You're one of the greatest artists whose I know the work, I love your story, and I want to read it through the rightful end !
I just ordered three products at Topatoco, hoping that my little pebble could participate to build a great house of self-confidence and happiness for you. I will order more whenever possible (not so soon, but I promise I will ; I have no choice, I'm addict to your work and I wanted your comic books for so long now that waiting for n° 1 isn't that much important now : I WILL have the complete serie one day, even if I started today with n° 3. I'm not sure that last passage was clear but, hey.).
I do hope you will keep on, and if I've well understood your message on Tumblr, you already sought (?) for help, so maybe you see a therapist : please do so ! It will help you rebuild your self-confidence, and exit depression. I wish you the very best, health and happiness and I wish you to believe what we're saying here : we love you and your art and don't want you to give up. Please.
Now I'll go to sleep before I become a pain in the neck by writing too much, and I'll try to remember, tomorrow (okay, today, in fact, but later) morning to send you an email.
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Post by Covalent on Mar 5, 2014 2:42:27 GMT
He shouldn't let the batshit crazy Tumblr SJWs get to him, simply for the fact that they ARE batshit crazy.
I was hoping that the stuff I read on r/TumblrInAction wouldn't ever seep into stuff that I enjoy.
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guyy
Full Member
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Post by guyy on Mar 5, 2014 2:52:25 GMT
The internet really has become a world of zero perspective, hasn't it?
Tom, anyone can tell by reading your comic that you're a caring, intelligent, progressive-minded person. You just recently did a portrayal of a character going through some uncertainty about her sexuality, which was described as very realistic by people who've been through such things. The idea that you're transphobic is so inconceivable to me that no dumb twitter snafu has any hope of changing my mind, and I'm sure most of your readers feel the same way. I don't think you need to worry about losing your fanbase over this.
It is good and right and appropriate to care about trans people and regret offending them. But it was just a twitter brainfart (redundant?), and one you apologized profusely for. That should be the end of it.
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Post by Daedalus on Mar 5, 2014 3:00:24 GMT
The many people here trying to defuse the conflict are correct. Throwing around insults will help no one. I agree that, in my moment of anger, I misstated the message I was trying to send. We should be, as eyemyself pointed out, 'calling in' to the people who called you out and who have been called out in turn. Your heartfelt apology began the process, and we all here should continue it. Let's try again. I *am* discouraged that people would attack Tom, especially since he has proven himself repeatedly (especially recently in Threads) to be extremely supportive of the LGBTQ community. I *am* convinced that they overreacted. This is nothing about their sexual identity, nor who they are as people. I just condemn their actions in these last few days. And, despite that I am not supposed to say this, I truly see nothing that you did wrong, beyond speaking (typing?) without thinking of the interpretation. Is not my opinion as valid as those of the other commenters? Besides and beyond all of that, you are an inspiration and a light in the dark to all but a vanishingly small percentage of your 13.6K followers, and many more besides. The world you have built is full of light and beauty. The characters are powerful and striking. The art (more and more as the story goes on) is beautiful and awe-inspiring to behold. Often when I am depressed or deeply cynical of humanity, all it takes to restore my happiness and optimism is to take an archive binge in the Gunnerverse. Your kudzu plot is astonishingly engaging - otherwise, why would such a large community have grown around it on the forum? You have (indirectly) introduced me to a group of kind, intelligent, rational people (who do indeed have good taste) who also find joy in the world you have built. You have engaged with the issue of sexual discrimination like no other author I know, and one comment on a tumblr will never change that. It's a sign of your gift that **literally every person** that I have introduced to this comic has read it in a single archive binge. You are an advocate, an artist, and an inspiration. In short, the world would be a little darker without you - I hope everyone recognizes this in time, even those who currently are flaming you. You have a rare muse. If Gunnerkrigg is where you want to devote your life, please do so. If you find happiness lies elsewhere, go and find it! Just please, please, please don't lose the faith in yourself. Find a therapist. It will help. This one I know from experience. And, whatever you do, I hope you know that you have brightened my life, and the life of many people I know.
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Post by warrl on Mar 5, 2014 3:02:21 GMT
The problem is a strange mindset that I have to consider a dangerous form of insanity, but is extremely prevalent in certain (mostly political) circles.
And that mindset says:
If a [protected minority or subculture] person does something rude, crude, vulgar, destructive, dangerous, threatening, criminal, or just somewhat stupid,
and you call them out for that action,
you obviously are biased and full of hate against [protected minority or subculture] -
and that is the ONLY reason you protested against their action.
This is irrefutably assumed to be true even if you don't know that the person you are calling out is [protected minority or subculture].
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Post by khevtol on Mar 5, 2014 3:38:30 GMT
The problem is a strange mindset that I have to consider a dangerous form of insanity, but is extremely prevalent in certain (mostly political) circles. And that mindset says: If a [protected minority or subculture] person does something rude, crude, vulgar, destructive, dangerous, threatening, criminal, or just somewhat stupid, and you call them out for that action, you obviously are biased and full of hate against [protected minority or subculture] - and that is the ONLY reason you protested against their action. This is irrefutably assumed to be true even if you don't know that the person you are calling out is [protected minority or subculture]. I do agree with you, but I would rather this thread be focused on positive messages/things for tom than decending into argument.
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Søren
Junior Member
Pursuing Authenticity
Posts: 78
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Post by Søren on Mar 5, 2014 3:41:36 GMT
I've been reading this comic for almost a decade now, and in my mind it stands alone among all others as an example of what a talented person can achieve if they apply themselves to their craft. It's not just a demonstration of ability, but of determination. In short, Tom, you're going to have to do a lot more than make a mildly crude joke to get rid of me. You could chop my mom's head off and I would probably still be here every Monday Wednesday and Friday to read the strip and watch people discuss their wild theories. TL;DR- Thousands of people love you and love your work. Please don't be sad.
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Post by sapientcoffee on Mar 5, 2014 3:49:20 GMT
I'm mostly reminded of the furor over a Joss Whedon tweet. Except Tom clearly does feel he didn't act appropriately and has apologized and since he's always come across as a decent dude, I willing to call a mistake a mistake and not the beginning of a pattern. It's dangerous to look at any one moment of a person's life (even more so their online life) and judge it with no consideration to the whole. Tom, you're good people and I very much don't want to lose you to shadow. Lost enough people that way and I don't like it, no sir.
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Post by Señor Goose on Mar 5, 2014 4:43:38 GMT
Well the difference of course is that Whedon directly implied that transwomen can't be female characters.
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Post by sapientcoffee on Mar 5, 2014 5:01:29 GMT
Mostly reminded. And I got the impression that many of the responses to Tom didn't know he was responding to a movie.
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Post by foolishmortal on Mar 5, 2014 5:19:52 GMT
I'm a broke artist myself so I can't do much but register to give my support in hopes he reads this.
As someone whose also is dealing with the hell that is depression I can sadly imagine what Tom is going through. I've had days where one little mistake or misunderstanding and I start feeling like I need to apologize for taking up space or breathing air that someone else could be using.
So Tom, your comic is beautiful and one of my favorites. I've read it for years and you've never disappointed. I wish you all the best and hope you good health and wealth. And if not happiness than at least a good even keel. I hope you get whatever you need to help you out of this. Depression is hell and no one deserves it - least of all you.
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Post by Señor Goose on Mar 5, 2014 5:26:37 GMT
Mostly reminded. And I got the impression that many of the responses to Tom didn't know he was responding to a movie. Was he? It seems like he was just making a dick joke.
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Søren
Junior Member
Pursuing Authenticity
Posts: 78
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Post by Søren on Mar 5, 2014 5:27:01 GMT
And I got the impression that many of the responses to Tom didn't know he was responding to a movie. The official SJW motto should be: "Shoot first, ask questions later." Mostly reminded. And I got the impression that many of the responses to Tom didn't know he was responding to a movie. Was he? It seems like he was just making a dick joke. He was relaxing with a few brews and live-tweeting his reactions to a movie. He has done this in the past. I've changed my mind, The motto should actually be "context is irrelevant when my indignation is involved"
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Post by sapientcoffee on Mar 5, 2014 5:29:28 GMT
Eh, people have always had a "react first, think later" impulse and a desire to be first on the action - the internet just makes it possible to have virtual mobs on standby.
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Søren
Junior Member
Pursuing Authenticity
Posts: 78
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Post by Søren on Mar 5, 2014 5:31:57 GMT
the internet just makes it possible to have virtual mobs on standby. Yep. Suddenly everyone has an infinite supply of people to be a dick to. I guess for some of us that is a dream come true.
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Post by sapientcoffee on Mar 5, 2014 5:36:26 GMT
Hmm, I think just a small amount of the mob are the "Let's stir up shit" type. I believe most people are honestly indignant, hurt, or believe the other person is wrong. But since they're on the internet and in a group, they express themselves much more strongly than if they were alone, or speaking to a stranger in real life.
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Post by Señor Goose on Mar 5, 2014 5:39:04 GMT
"context is irrelevant when my indignation is involved"
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Sal
New Member
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
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Post by Sal on Mar 5, 2014 5:44:11 GMT
But since they're on the internet and in a group, they express themselves much more strongly than if they were alone, or speaking to a stranger in real life. Gabriel's "Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory" ALWAYS applies in these situations.
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Post by sabriel on Mar 5, 2014 8:19:40 GMT
I wrote a page and a half of why, as a dysphoric transgender person who is on Tumblr a lot, the majority of people Tom is experiencing backlash from have no right to say what they're saying, but I figured it was probably gibberish to people who don't know all the vernacular in the trans movement, so I'm just going to say this:
Mr. Siddell, there is something tragically broken in the Tumblr trans community. You spoke without thinking, but these are not the people to allow to have power over whether you forgive yourself or not. Anyone who's getting joy or satisfaction out of this or is saying you haven't apologized enough has a lot of bitterness in their hearts, and that's their problem, not yours. Furthermore, you don't need to inflict emotional violence on yourself for people like me. It doesn't help us, so why should we want to see you suffer? It's okay to forgive yourself. I know it's hard to believe that, but trust me. We've got it rough, but that doesn't mean you should have it rough too. You're a good person, Tom. You don't have to suffer with us. You don't deserve it. We don't either; the ideal situation is that none of us would suffer. But life is not ideal, and therefore, all we can do is try to help one another. If you do not like that trans people suffer needlessly, there are lots of things you can do, but being sad with us isn't one of them. It just makes the collective level of sadness in this world a little greater, and nobody wants that. Well, some people do, but are they the kind of people you want the approval of?
It's okay to be sad that people are angry at you, or because you regret that you hurt people, but don't be sad because you think it is a punishment befitting of the crime. Anybody who still thinks you deserve to be punished is just...incorrect. I think you have punished yourself enough for a thousand Tumblr SJWs. In fact, I know you have, because you very closely echo myself when I'm in a depressive self-punishment spiral.
Feel free to come out of this on your own time, but remember, you do not deserve to feel like this, and you certainly do not deserve to feel like this forever. Please, please, take care of yourself.
Also, I don't expect you to, but if you feel yourself spiraling before you get a chance to talk to your therapist next, and want to talk to someone, my skype is lexie.phoenix (and don't worry, I too don't like to webcam). Aside from being transgender, I also deal with the exact kind of depression you're describing, so maybe even if I can't help, I can understand. And if you have questions about what's right and wrong to say in front of transgender people, I'm happy to answer without judgment.
You are forgivable and lovable and you do deserve happiness. Don't make yourself sad just because trans people are sad; our deservingness of happiness doesn't cancel out yours. Big hugs.
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Post by Tom Siddell on Mar 5, 2014 10:04:53 GMT
Thank you, I appreciate the sentiment, but I should not be praised for making a mistake.
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