Sivo
New Member
Posts: 46
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Post by Sivo on Sept 12, 2013 1:11:19 GMT
"A place for everyone to live together..."
Tom might need a place like that sooner than later...
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Post by aaroncampbell on Sept 12, 2013 1:19:25 GMT
So I'm not sure if this is the right place to bring it up, but did anyone else see Tom's tweet? I wasn't familiar with the whole Section 21 thing, so here's some more info. It's a sad coincidence that this came on the page about "A place for everyone to live together." Tom, I hope you're going to be alright for other living arrangements?
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Post by KMar on Sept 12, 2013 1:36:36 GMT
Rules were made to be broken, especially in writing. You play some tropes straight, and some you subvert. Show and tell is not a hard and fast rule, there are great authors on either end of that spectrum. Since the Court is a great mystery, there is obviously only so much you can show. At some point you have to interrogate a witness. If you don't have any plot devices, you have no plot, just a bunch of impressions. A story needs something to revolve around. And don't worry about monologing, that's what this forum is for. I don't mind exposition, I just think that this exposition has come from nowhere. GC has had plenty of monologuing explanations before, and usually it's felt magical, fascinating and relevant... partially because of the buildup to the encounter with the monologue. In this case, there was no buildup, no chain of events leading to a revelatory climax – Annie's taking yet-another trip to the forest, working out some Ysengrin-related drama, and then when he starts fighting some dudes, suddenly the exposition fairy pops up and whispers "psst! Hey! Wanna hear answers for one of the central mysteries that's been sitting just out of reach throughout several years?" Annie has previously lived in the forest for months at a time. Why is Sentient Seed Spirit only encountering her now? Apparently it's because she had to encounter it in this specific ruin? Why is she only going to this specific ruin now? Because Ysengrin decided she needed to be "stronger"? Because Tom decided now was as good a time as any to answer all our questions? I'm not upset we're getting answers, I'm confused that the answers seem to have been dropped on us from above as a non-sequitor. "Interrogate a witness", sure, but in stories it usually helps to know that a witness exists before it starts wrapping up all the loose ends of the mystery for us. Two pages ago, most of us thought the Seed Bismuth was an object or spell of some kind, not a sentient being with wings and a voice. Compare it to the drama leading up to Annie's chat with Jones, or the arc that revealed some Court history via some drama with robots. Those stories put weight behind the backstory, and reminded you why you cared about the mystery just as it was disclosed. In essence: Right now we're finally learning the origin and nature of the Court itself. That's a mystery that's been building slowly across every story arc since GC began. Having the answer unveiled THIS way feels like a pretty big anticlimax. "Oh hey. It was me. I did that. Nice to meet you! Mystery solved!" EDIT: Maybe something will happen in the second half of this chapter that will take Ysengrin's silly monster-dudes fight and thematically tie it perfectly to Annie's Encounter With The Seed Bismuth. Maybe it'll feel like " of course Annie encounters Seed this way, it's relevant because X Y Z". Maybe this mood whiplash will turn out to have been purposeful, to trick the reader for some bigger revelation later. In which case, I'll gladly eat my words. EDIT AGAIN: This is a lot of words for what's actually a pretty mild complaint in the long run. I don't suddenly feel like "JEEZ MAN GC SUCKS NAO". The main reason I'm putting so much effort into explaining why I have (a minor feeling of) disappointment here, is because it's new for me. All the good things I might say about GC every week usually are already said by other people – I'd just be more voice chiming in "I, also, think this is awesome!". I must confess that I agree wholeheartedly, except for the bit about 'mild complaint'. I'd consider it major let-down if this chapter really turns out like what it seems to be: bad storytelling, plain and simple. The Seed Bismuth (if this really is it) just jumps out of nowhere, no reason, no build-up, no nothing. Okay, we knew that there was some mysterious 'Seed Bismuth' that was important bit in Court's backstory, but the protagonists weren't seeking this witness, they (or the audience) didn't have reason to suspect they were going to encounter it. It wouldn't have been even so bad if Ysengrin would have told Annie something along the lines "there's something you should know". For example, remember the 'saddest face' and the video diary of the tiny original mini-robot? The exposition and the plot leading to it made sense: there was a reason why the King of Robots sought to meet Kat and show the memories of mini-robot. The Court/Diego/Jeanne mystery was neatly tied up to the the-Robots-think-Kat-is-an-Angel angle. Or the 'what- is-Jones' question? Well, Annie asked that question aloud, there was plot and drama which led her to ask that question. This? "In a midst of one of Randy's simulations, Jones suddenly appears and tells Annie that she is not a robot, and recitals her memoirs since the beginning of the planet Earth".
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Post by snipertom on Sept 12, 2013 5:39:25 GMT
I don't mind exposition, I just think that this exposition has come from nowhere. GC has had plenty of monologuing explanations before, and usually it's felt magical, fascinating and relevant... partially because of the buildup to the encounter with the monologue. In this case, there was no buildup, no chain of events leading to a revelatory climax – Annie's taking yet-another trip to the forest, working out some Ysengrin-related drama, and then when he starts fighting some dudes, suddenly the exposition fairy pops up and whispers "psst! Hey! Wanna hear answers for one of the central mysteries that's been sitting just out of reach throughout several years?" Annie has previously lived in the forest for months at a time. Why is Sentient Seed Spirit only encountering her now? Apparently it's because she had to encounter it in this specific ruin? Why is she only going to this specific ruin now? Because Ysengrin decided she needed to be "stronger"? Because Tom decided now was as good a time as any to answer all our questions? I'm not upset we're getting answers, I'm confused that the answers seem to have been dropped on us from above as a non-sequitor. "Interrogate a witness", sure, but in stories it usually helps to know that a witness exists before it starts wrapping up all the loose ends of the mystery for us. Two pages ago, most of us thought the Seed Bismuth was an object or spell of some kind, not a sentient being with wings and a voice. Compare it to the drama leading up to Annie's chat with Jones, or the arc that revealed some Court history via some drama with robots. Those stories put weight behind the backstory, and reminded you why you cared about the mystery just as it was disclosed. In essence: Right now we're finally learning the origin and nature of the Court itself. That's a mystery that's been building slowly across every story arc since GC began. Having the answer unveiled THIS way feels like a pretty big anticlimax. "Oh hey. It was me. I did that. Nice to meet you! Mystery solved!" EDIT: Maybe something will happen in the second half of this chapter that will take Ysengrin's silly monster-dudes fight and thematically tie it perfectly to Annie's Encounter With The Seed Bismuth. Maybe it'll feel like " of course Annie encounters Seed this way, it's relevant because X Y Z". Maybe this mood whiplash will turn out to have been purposeful, to trick the reader for some bigger revelation later. In which case, I'll gladly eat my words. EDIT AGAIN: This is a lot of words for what's actually a pretty mild complaint in the long run. I don't suddenly feel like "JEEZ MAN GC SUCKS NAO". The main reason I'm putting so much effort into explaining why I have (a minor feeling of) disappointment here, is because it's new for me. All the good things I might say about GC every week usually are already said by other people – I'd just be more voice chiming in "I, also, think this is awesome!". I must confess that I agree wholeheartedly, except for the bit about 'mild complaint'. I'd consider it major let-down if this chapter really turns out like what it seems to be: bad storytelling, plain and simple. The Seed Bismuth (if this really is it) just jumps out of nowhere, no reason, no build-up, no nothing. Okay, we knew that there was some mysterious 'Seed Bismuth' that was important bit in Court's backstory, but the protagonists weren't seeking this witness, they (or the audience) didn't have reason to suspect they were going to encounter it. It wouldn't have been even so bad if Ysengrin would have told Annie something along the lines "there's something you should know". For example, remember the 'saddest face' and the video diary of the tiny original mini-robot? The exposition and the plot leading to it made sense: there was a reason why the King of Robots sought to meet Kat and show the memories of mini-robot. The Court/Diego/Jeanne mystery was neatly tied up to the the-Robots-think-Kat-is-an-Angel angle. Or the 'what- is-Jones' question? Well, Annie asked that question aloud, there was plot and drama which led her to ask that question. This? "In a midst of one of Randy's simulations, Jones suddenly appears and tells Annie that she is not a robot, and recitals her memoirs since the beginning of the planet Earth". Well it makes sense if the SB has been aware of Annie for some time and wants her to do something for it/her/him. Would Annie trust a random mysterious fairy-butterfly-spirit who doesn't introduce itself or why it needs help? (Why do I think of Seed Bismuth as female?!)
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Post by snipertom on Sept 12, 2013 5:41:07 GMT
I feel like every chapter people whinge about how Tom's telling the story and what the art is like. "I have no idea what's going on", "This wasn't show not tell enough!", "The art looks too wonky", "the art looks too realistic. And then somehow, in the end, it all seems to work out ok
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manny
New Member
an actual bear
Posts: 4
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Post by manny on Sept 12, 2013 5:46:06 GMT
Oohoh I feel a mighty need to brag I have one! They don't quite live up to Tom's gorgeous rendition, though.
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Post by GK Sierra on Sept 12, 2013 6:13:42 GMT
I think I understand what you're getting at. It is a bit sudden and convenient narrative-wise, but it seems perfectly in line with Tom's style of humor to have the keystone of the plot be something cute and innocuous.
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Post by zbeeblebrox on Sept 12, 2013 7:35:16 GMT
I don't mind exposition, I just think that this exposition has come from nowhere. GC has had plenty of monologuing explanations before, and usually it's felt magical, fascinating and relevant... partially because of the buildup to the encounter with the monologue. In this case, there was no buildup, no chain of events leading to a revelatory climax – Annie's taking yet-another trip to the forest, working out some Ysengrin-related drama, and then when he starts fighting some dudes, suddenly the exposition fairy pops up and whispers "psst! Hey! Wanna hear answers for one of the central mysteries that's been sitting just out of reach throughout several years?" Annie has previously lived in the forest for months at a time. Why is Sentient Seed Spirit only encountering her now? Apparently it's because she had to encounter it in this specific ruin? Why is she only going to this specific ruin now? Because Ysengrin decided she needed to be "stronger"? Because Tom decided now was as good a time as any to answer all our questions? I'm not upset we're getting answers, I'm confused that the answers seem to have been dropped on us from above as a non-sequitor. "Interrogate a witness", sure, but in stories it usually helps to know that a witness exists before it starts wrapping up all the loose ends of the mystery for us. Two pages ago, most of us thought the Seed Bismuth was an object or spell of some kind, not a sentient being with wings and a voice. Compare it to the drama leading up to Annie's chat with Jones, or the arc that revealed some Court history via some drama with robots. Those stories put weight behind the backstory, and reminded you why you cared about the mystery just as it was disclosed. In essence: Right now we're finally learning the origin and nature of the Court itself. That's a mystery that's been building slowly across every story arc since GC began. Having the answer unveiled THIS way feels like a pretty big anticlimax. "Oh hey. It was me. I did that. Nice to meet you! Mystery solved!" EDIT: Maybe something will happen in the second half of this chapter that will take Ysengrin's silly monster-dudes fight and thematically tie it perfectly to Annie's Encounter With The Seed Bismuth. Maybe it'll feel like " of course Annie encounters Seed this way, it's relevant because X Y Z". Maybe this mood whiplash will turn out to have been purposeful, to trick the reader for some bigger revelation later. In which case, I'll gladly eat my words. EDIT AGAIN: This is a lot of words for what's actually a pretty mild complaint in the long run. I don't suddenly feel like "JEEZ MAN GC SUCKS NAO". The main reason I'm putting so much effort into explaining why I have (a minor feeling of) disappointment here, is because it's new for me. All the good things I might say about GC every week usually are already said by other people – I'd just be more voice chiming in "I, also, think this is awesome!". I must confess that I agree wholeheartedly, except for the bit about 'mild complaint'. I'd consider it major let-down if this chapter really turns out like what it seems to be: bad storytelling, plain and simple. The Seed Bismuth (if this really is it) just jumps out of nowhere, no reason, no build-up, no nothing. Okay, we knew that there was some mysterious 'Seed Bismuth' that was important bit in Court's backstory, but the protagonists weren't seeking this witness, they (or the audience) didn't have reason to suspect they were going to encounter it. It wouldn't have been even so bad if Ysengrin would have told Annie something along the lines "there's something you should know". For example, remember the 'saddest face' and the video diary of the tiny original mini-robot? The exposition and the plot leading to it made sense: there was a reason why the King of Robots sought to meet Kat and show the memories of mini-robot. The Court/Diego/Jeanne mystery was neatly tied up to the the-Robots-think-Kat-is-an-Angel angle. Or the 'what- is-Jones' question? Well, Annie asked that question aloud, there was plot and drama which led her to ask that question. This? "In a midst of one of Randy's simulations, Jones suddenly appears and tells Annie that she is not a robot, and recitals her memoirs since the beginning of the planet Earth". Dude, you're reading way too much into a single page.
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Post by philman on Sept 12, 2013 7:42:13 GMT
Wow. Exposition Fairy out of nowhere. In the middle of Ysengrin getting his fight on with a bunch of Fun Monsters, Annie suddenly gets called over by THE MYSTERY ITSELF to be EXPLAINED EVERYTHING. In retrospect, it looks like this whole "you must get stronger" thing was just Tom's contrived excuse to get Annie to the ruins, with her companion busy, so she could have a chat with the seed bismuth. Honestly, I'm disappointed: This is a thing you can point at and say "Plot Device" – very unlike the usual way everything feels natural and consequential. I've always pointed to GC as an example of Excellent Plotting, but this chapter so far is... an exception. At this point, I'm half-expecitng a robot to fall out of a tree on the next page and start monologuing on the nature of Tic-Tocs. And then Ysengrin and his monsters start stampeding for some reason, and chase Annie right into contact with some exiled ex-president of the court, who'll proceed to detail the political structure of the court in great detail. EDIT: Also, this creature seems to be violating show-don't-tell a bit. "It saddens me", huh? (You can't just have your characters announce how they feel! That makes me feel angry!) Honestly, I'm hoping I can interpret this as suspicious behavior, and that the Exposition Fairy isn't actually the Seed Bismuth, but some spirit that is trying to deceive Annie with easy answers. EDIT AGAIN: Upon glancing over the comments section, and rereading this thread more carefully, I'm noticing that I'm the only person who finds this sudden, contextless monologue to be out-of-place. I guess I'll just see myself out? Sorry to barge in being all grumpy-pants. I agree completely with you, and said something similar on the page for Monday I think. This just seems completely out of nowhere. "Oh, no-one knows what the seed Bismuth was or looked like" "Oh hi, I'm the Seed Bismuth, let me explain everything for you now" Given Tom's past nature, I am hoping and expecting however that this is a bluff of some kind. We are still very early in the chapter, so this must be leading to something and not just be an exposition fairy from nowhere. Look at Hetty from the last chapter, introduced to allow some exposition about Renard's past, then destroyed allowing him some redemption and showing us a new friendship between Rey and Eglamore. Given the seeming straightforwardness of the exposition in the last 2 pages, there MUST be some sort of major twist coming. I am still half convinced that this is not the seed bismuth at all, merely something from Ysengrin's Army pretending to be it. Hey, maybe the real SB really does look like this, and it may be telling the truth about the founding of the court. But given the fighting and nasty creatures we have just seen, I am still suspecting this is another of those nasty creatures, that is just a bit more subtle about it. Especially given Ysengrin said she was weak, so he was bringing her here to make her stronger. Seeing through a major trick such as this, or being fooled by it could be a test.
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Post by stephen on Sept 12, 2013 8:01:02 GMT
I feel like every chapter people whinge about how Tom's telling the story and what the art is like. This is the sort of observation one makes when they've confused everyone on the internet for each other simultaneously. The same species of dismissal as "People asked X to do Y, then when X did Y people complained and said they wanted Z back! They're obviously just complaining for any reason!" Well no, some people are actually separate entities from each other. The people who wanted Z are different people than the people who wanted Y. So: This really is the only time I've expressed disapproval for a thing in GC. I explained exactly why I think this particular occasion is flawed in a way that GC never has been before. You're correct, this isn't the first time any person has complained ever, but that doesn't mean that I earned treatment as "whinging about the story every chapter". You probably just don't care, everyone's just another faceless word-source on the internet, I'm clearly making way too much out of a casual throwaway insult, taking it too personally, etc. Well, I guess my point is, don't use throwaway insults. If you're not gonna just ignore something, if you feel like expressing distaste, then pay attention. Needlessly long posts: I write 'em!
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Post by zimmyzims on Sept 12, 2013 8:14:34 GMT
Rules were made to be broken, especially in writing. You play some tropes straight, and some you subvert. Show and tell is not a hard and fast rule, there are great authors on either end of that spectrum. Since the Court is a great mystery, there is obviously only so much you can show. At some point you have to interrogate a witness. If you don't have any plot devices, you have no plot, just a bunch of impressions. A story needs something to revolve around. And don't worry about monologing, that's what this forum is for. I don't mind exposition, I just think that this exposition has come from nowhere. GC has had plenty of monologuing explanations before, and usually it's felt magical, fascinating and relevant... partially because of the buildup to the encounter with the monologue. In this case, there was no buildup, no chain of events leading to a revelatory climax – Annie's taking yet-another trip to the forest, working out some Ysengrin-related drama, and then when he starts fighting some dudes, suddenly the exposition fairy pops up and whispers "psst! Hey! Wanna hear answers for one of the central mysteries that's been sitting just out of reach throughout several years?" Annie has previously lived in the forest for months at a time. Why is Sentient Seed Spirit only encountering her now? Apparently it's because she had to encounter it in this specific ruin? Why is she only going to this specific ruin now? Because Ysengrin decided she needed to be "stronger"? Because Tom decided now was as good a time as any to answer all our questions? I'm not upset we're getting answers, I'm confused that the answers seem to have been dropped on us from above as a non-sequitor. "Interrogate a witness", sure, but in stories it usually helps to know that a witness exists before it starts wrapping up all the loose ends of the mystery for us. Two pages ago, most of us thought the Seed Bismuth was an object or spell of some kind, not a sentient being with wings and a voice. Compare it to the drama leading up to Annie's chat with Jones, or the arc that revealed some Court history via some drama with robots. Those stories put weight behind the backstory, and reminded you why you cared about the mystery just as it was disclosed. In essence: Right now we're finally learning the origin and nature of the Court itself. That's a mystery that's been building slowly across every story arc since GC began. Having the answer unveiled THIS way feels like a pretty big anticlimax. "Oh hey. It was me. I did that. Nice to meet you! Mystery solved!" EDIT: Maybe something will happen in the second half of this chapter that will take Ysengrin's silly monster-dudes fight and thematically tie it perfectly to Annie's Encounter With The Seed Bismuth. Maybe it'll feel like " of course Annie encounters Seed this way, it's relevant because X Y Z". Maybe this mood whiplash will turn out to have been purposeful, to trick the reader for some bigger revelation later. In which case, I'll gladly eat my words. EDIT AGAIN: This is a lot of words for what's actually a pretty mild complaint in the long run. I don't suddenly feel like "JEEZ MAN GC SUCKS NAO". The main reason I'm putting so much effort into explaining why I have (a minor feeling of) disappointment here, is because it's new for me. All the good things I might say about GC every week usually are already said by other people – I'd just be more voice chiming in "I, also, think this is awesome!". I disagree. If you only choose to look at the chapter, then Jones-story was preceded by Annie walking to her room and nothing else. What an immense chain of events indeed! If you look at the incentive for that marching into her room, it was Coyote saying that maybe Annie should talk with her. Now, if you broaden the frame, you can add Jones as a puzzling mystery for Annie, and the discourse on court and forest that Annie receives from Coyote and Jones, intriguing her. If you look at this chapter only, there of course was no build-up towards the meeting of the Seed Bismuth - for understandable reason that nobody knew it would be there. Instead, we have here a back story with a sudden plot twist, turning the story towards something very else than what it was expected to be. If you broaden the frame, Seed Bismuth is closely related to a problem of the origins of the court, something that has been intriguing Annie. The incentive to go and meet the Seed Bismuth was an indirect one, it was given by the dangerous brawl that she seemed keen to avoid. But first she must have got to the ruins. Now, the plot behind her getting at the ruins is indeed a pretty long one. She got there, because Ys needed to show it to he as the new medium of the forest; she became the new forest medium, because she was disregarded by the court; she was disregarded by the court for various reasons but most likely because she was too neglecting towards the court and too freely going to the forest. But while she explored the forest, quite apparently she could not have ever got to those ruins, let alone survive there, without this turn of events, and thus could have been looking for the seed bismuth forever at the court, in vain. There was a long build-up, but what makes this anti-climatic to you, the difference relative to Jones-story, is that an important part of the story is found accidentally - or thus far seemingly accidentally, because we cannot be fully aware of the ruses of minds of Coyote and perhaps more importantly the Headmaster who might have been aware that the Seed Bismuth is at the ruins and could have wagered that Ys would take Annie there (if this turns out to be true, I'm entitled to one helluva gunner cookie, having called headmasters ruse already back in the medium-selection chapter and being able to associate these two here). But in any event, a plot twist that plays a piece of random occurrence, an unpredictable, unintended turn of events that advances the main story at an unexpected place in unexpected manner, is not in itself bad story-telling. It is not only a known part of many well-respected stories, Hobbit a quite known one. But moreover, it is a piece of realism, because the element also known as "random shit" actually does play a huge part in most of the real life stories. There is a long story that got her there, in a quite unlikely manner of her becoming the forest medium instead of the court medium. This turned out to be a vital element for the story, now very likely mostly because that way she stumbled into the Seed Bismuth which advances the plot significantly. There's nothing anti-climatic about that. Haven't you been waiting for what her being the forest medium will bring about in the story? And why not this? Just because it was surprising? Just because she had no idea that she could find this information there? Just because Seed Bismuth was not ceremonially introduced to her by Coyote (quite a bunch of things have been told us that way, which makes them in no way better story telling)? Now, I do not expect that listening to the Seed Bismuth will solve the whole storyline. Instead, Annie will get some important information back with her to continue with her puzzles, probably turning her mind on a question or two, and advancing the plot immensely.
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Post by Eversist on Sept 12, 2013 8:35:41 GMT
Zimmyzims has got it. Awesome post.
I repeat my sentiment from earlier in the thread. Let's wait for the chapter to be over to be making blanket statements about how poor this storytelling is.
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Post by stephen on Sept 12, 2013 8:47:10 GMT
I already said that, if this turns out to be not what it appears to be (it appears to be a roughly contrived meaningless accident, which to me feels undeserving of solving The Biggest Remaining Mystery), I will gladly eat my words. I've only been talking about my thoughts on this twist as it appears so far: if there's a hidden reason things happened this way, that does invalidate what I've said. I will be very happy to look back at my past self and see how wrong I was.
I think it'd be a silly policy, though, to hold one's tongue entirely until the story is over. GC is going to last a long time yet (chapters aren't standalone stories), we might as well talk about our initial impressions with what we know so far, right?
I'll step back and cool off though, since I've probably taken things too far by now. The process of debating tends to push people further to extremes, and I really don't want to further practice hating on Gunnerkrigg. I swear, even though I only posted today to critique, it's my favorite webcomic!
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Post by zimmyzims on Sept 12, 2013 13:34:35 GMT
I already said that, if this turns out to be not what it appears to be (it appears to be a roughly contrived meaningless accident, which to me feels undeserving of solving The Biggest Remaining Mystery), I will gladly eat my words. I've only been talking about my thoughts on this twist as it appears so far: if there's a hidden reason things happened this way, that does invalidate what I've said. I will be very happy to look back at my past self and see how wrong I was. I think it'd be a silly policy, though, to hold one's tongue entirely until the story is over. GC is going to last a long time yet (chapters aren't standalone stories), we might as well talk about our initial impressions with what we know so far, right? I'll step back and cool off though, since I've probably taken things too far by now. The process of debating tends to push people further to extremes, and I really don't want to further practice hating on Gunnerkrigg. I swear, even though I only posted today to critique, it's my favorite webcomic! I have no intention to practice hating either. Gunnerkriggboards is probably the least hateful corner of internet that I've yet met and I prefer it to stay such. I realize that debating may destroy a peaceful scene, but I also share your feelings in what you said before: Perhaps I'm just not a nice person, but I find it more productive for a discourse to speak out disagreements than to agreements with what has been said before, and generally find the critique more worthy of being expressed than the praise. On a side note, I'm cool - no, not cool: ice cold.
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Post by Eversist on Sept 12, 2013 14:04:05 GMT
I already said that... [snip] I think it'd be a silly policy, though, to hold one's tongue entirely until the story is over. [snip] You're right, Stephen, you did. I guess I just find it equally silly spending the time you did establishing and defending your position on something that isn't even fully completed yet (the plot arc of the chapter). I guess I would liken it to reviewing a book without having finished it yet... albeit on a smaller scale. Personal, perhaps overtly fan-girly opinion. Besides, I may have the habit of arguing for the sake of arguing.
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Post by exdevlin on Sept 12, 2013 14:43:20 GMT
Zimmyzims has got it. Awesome post. I repeat my sentiment from earlier in the thread. Let's wait for the chapter to be over to be making blanket statements about how poor this storytelling is. Bingo. Withholding judgment/analysis/picking-apart until later. I'm still waiting for SB to turn out to be Coyote telling his stories.
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Ender
Junior Member
Posts: 89
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Post by Ender on Sept 12, 2013 14:58:10 GMT
How many times has the Seed Bismuth been mentioned in the comic? Wasn't the only time it was brought up before was when they were in the simulation and Jones was giving the history of the Court? That's the only time I can think of. I think this thing with the Seed Bismuth has been hyped up to be a way bigger deal than it originally was supposed to be, mainly because of the nature of the slow updates and discussion being stretched out over several years. For an archive binger this probably isn't as big of a deal.
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Post by Eversist on Sept 12, 2013 15:02:36 GMT
How many times has the Seed Bismuth been mentioned in the comic? Wasn't the only time it was brought up before was when they were in the simulation and Jones was giving the history of the Court? That's the only time I can think of. I think this thing with the Seed Bismuth has been hyped up to be a way bigger deal than it originally was supposed to be, mainly because of the nature of the slow updates and discussion being stretched out over several years. For an archive binger this probably isn't as big of a deal. Well, if I'm not misremembering, Kat and Annie have also discussed the Court growing, rather than being built. It's certainly likely that the format of the comic is the reason that this is being brought up at all, you are correct. Edit: Found the relevant page: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=877And the question of the size of the court has been introduced as far back as this page: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=147
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Post by goldenknots on Sept 12, 2013 15:07:49 GMT
How many times has the Seed Bismuth been mentioned in the comic? Wasn't the only time it was brought up before was when they were in the simulation and Jones was giving the history of the Court? That's the only time I can think of. I think this thing with the Seed Bismuth has been hyped up to be a way bigger deal than it originally was supposed to be, mainly because of the nature of the slow updates and discussion being stretched out over several years. For an archive binger this probably isn't as big of a deal. I'm trying to figure out what is meant by "slow updates". You could count the late updates on one hand, since I started reading this story a couple'r so years ago. As for the story pacing, I don't see any reason to second-guess the author on how he decides to tell his story. If you don't like only getting three updates a week, stop reading it for a while and then come back to a nice backlog. :)
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Ender
Junior Member
Posts: 89
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Post by Ender on Sept 12, 2013 20:02:19 GMT
How many times has the Seed Bismuth been mentioned in the comic? Wasn't the only time it was brought up before was when they were in the simulation and Jones was giving the history of the Court? That's the only time I can think of. I think this thing with the Seed Bismuth has been hyped up to be a way bigger deal than it originally was supposed to be, mainly because of the nature of the slow updates and discussion being stretched out over several years. For an archive binger this probably isn't as big of a deal. I'm trying to figure out what is meant by "slow updates". You could count the late updates on one hand, since I started reading this story a couple'r so years ago. As for the story pacing, I don't see any reason to second-guess the author on how he decides to tell his story. If you don't like only getting three updates a week, stop reading it for a while and then come back to a nice backlog. I didn't say I didn't like it. I just mean only 3 pages a week is slow compared to archive binging or reading the physical copies, which is what he has in mind when he's making it.
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Post by philman on Sept 12, 2013 21:17:13 GMT
I don't think you're being controversial Stephan, just wait and see where it goes. Plenty of chapter left.
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Post by arf on Sept 12, 2013 23:21:24 GMT
I do see what Stephen means. Dropping something like the seed Bismuth into the story just like that does seem gauche. However, I haven't seen any other evidence that Tom's story telling skills have suddenly taken a holiday, so I'm waiting to see where this goes.
I may have missed someone, but nobody seems inclined to speculate on why the seed Bismuth has suddenly appeared at this point of the story rather than, say, tripping Annie up on the way to see Jones, or turning out to be the one who wrote that letter to Kat. Could it be that it has some relationship with Ysengrin's army?
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Post by arf on Sept 12, 2013 23:28:43 GMT
How many times has the Seed Bismuth been mentioned in the comic? Wasn't the only time it was brought up before was when they were in the simulation and Jones was giving the history of the Court? That's the only time I can think of. I think this thing with the Seed Bismuth has been hyped up to be a way bigger deal than it originally was supposed to be, mainly because of the nature of the slow updates and discussion being stretched out over several years. For an archive binger this probably isn't as big of a deal. It was also referred to by the old robot that Kat reanimated. Before they deactivate it, Annie asks how the Court was built, and it responds casually 'The Court? It grew from the seed Bismuth.'
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Post by GK Sierra on Sept 12, 2013 23:29:40 GMT
Dropping something like the seed Bismuth into the story just like that does seem gauche. It was downright maladroit!
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Post by snipertom on Sept 12, 2013 23:36:08 GMT
I feel like every chapter people whinge about how Tom's telling the story and what the art is like. This is the sort of observation one makes when they've confused everyone on the internet for each other simultaneously. The same species of dismissal as "People asked X to do Y, then when X did Y people complained and said they wanted Z back! They're obviously just complaining for any reason!" Well no, some people are actually separate entities from each other. The people who wanted Z are different people than the people who wanted Y. So: This really is the only time I've expressed disapproval for a thing in GC. I explained exactly why I think this particular occasion is flawed in a way that GC never has been before. You're correct, this isn't the first time any person has complained ever, but that doesn't mean that I earned treatment as "whinging about the story every chapter". You probably just don't care, everyone's just another faceless word-source on the internet, I'm clearly making way too much out of a casual throwaway insult, taking it too personally, etc. Well, I guess my point is, don't use throwaway insults. If you're not gonna just ignore something, if you feel like expressing distaste, then pay attention. Needlessly long posts: I write 'em! Sorry, I was a cranky-pants. I do think critique is allowed (and necessary). I guess I feel... like we need to give it a bit of time rather than jumping to conclusions about the quality of the story-telling; and as others have said, there has been a long build-up about the Seed Bismuth throughout the comic, so it doesn't seem very sudden to me (I've been reading it for 5 years or more!) (Re: 'whinging'- it's not an insult, at least not where I'm from , and that comment wasn't specifically directed at you, it was directed at everyone, so in that regard you've read too much into what I said.) Taking some time out myself
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Post by arf on Sept 13, 2013 1:16:23 GMT
Dropping something like the seed Bismuth into the story just like that does seem gauche. It was downright maladroit! ...almost makes you think something sinister is afoot!
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Post by warrl on Sept 13, 2013 3:26:00 GMT
I'm trying to figure out what is meant by "slow updates". Three pages a week, currently, when we're capable of reading three pages in less than a minute (not including download time). You're over-estimating. You probably can count the updates that are late by more than a minute, on the fingers of one ear. Tom has probably the largest buffer of already-complete-and-uploaded-but-not released comic pages in all of the webcomic world. Last report I heard, it was three months worth. All those pages are already on the server. The actual release schedule is automated. So the only reason a page will ever be late is because of server problems.
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Post by goldenknots on Sept 13, 2013 4:08:06 GMT
Tom has probably the largest buffer of already-complete-and-uploaded-but-not released comic pages in all of the webcomic world. Last report I heard, it was three months worth. All those pages are already on the server. The actual release schedule is automated. So the only reason a page will ever be late is because of server problems. Yep, the server problems were what I was thinking of. What, once? twice? I didn't really keep track.
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Post by GK Sierra on Sept 13, 2013 5:28:47 GMT
It was downright maladroit! ...almost makes you think something sinister is afoot! It sure has launched into a lot of very specific exposition for an imposter.
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Post by zbeeblebrox on Sept 13, 2013 5:47:31 GMT
I already said that... [snip] I think it'd be a silly policy, though, to hold one's tongue entirely until the story is over. [snip] You're right, Stephen, you did. I guess I just find it equally silly spending the time you did establishing and defending your position on something that isn't even fully completed yet (the plot arc of the chapter). I guess I would liken it to reviewing a book without having finished it yet... albeit on a smaller scale. Personal, perhaps overtly fan-girly opinion. Besides, I may have the habit of arguing for the sake of arguing. I don't think he's right. This isn't some gag-a-day comic where each arc is expected to unfold over 1-3 pages. How can he or any of us possibly know the entire course of the story, therefore, from a single page? We can't. So judging the entire course of the story over a single page is irresponsible.
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