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Post by Mezzaphor on Feb 13, 2013 22:12:18 GMT
'Twould definitely improve my opinion of the Court's competence if that turns out be what's happening.
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Post by todd on Feb 13, 2013 23:18:12 GMT
Honestly, I just don't buy the Court as the black villains of the piece, out to twist and manipulate everyone to their own ends. They're the vorlons to the forest's shadows - both are perilous, neither is truly evil. I think the same way - though I see the Court as a bit more responsible for the trouble than I see Gilltie. If its Founders hadn't come to the forest in search of the Bismuth Seed, and to delve into the etheric, none of those clashes would have happened. But I see their meddling as more misguided (succumbing to a desire for knowledge) than evil.
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Post by warrl on Feb 14, 2013 0:02:02 GMT
I've been secretly hoping this. Ysengrin is a terrible medium. ;D But he and Antimony make the perfect pair: the small medium and the large.
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Post by Nnelg on Feb 14, 2013 3:55:18 GMT
I think the same way - though I see the Court as a bit more responsible for the trouble than I see Gilltie. If its Founders hadn't come to the forest in search of the Bismuth Seed, and to delve into the etheric, none of those clashes would have happened. But I see their meddling as more misguided (succumbing to a desire for knowledge) than evil. We don't know yet if the Seed Bismuth was something the Court Founders came searching for, something they found by accident, something they brought with them, something the Forest had, something that was created to celebrate the unity of the Court and the Forest, vel cetera. But in general, we don't know what would or would not have happened if things worked out differently, if the Court had not come to the Forest. We can only judge based on intent, which as far as we know was benign.
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Post by todd on Feb 14, 2013 11:47:00 GMT
We don't know yet if the Seed Bismuth was something the Court Founders came searching for, something they found by accident, something they brought with them, something the Forest had, something that was created to celebrate the unity of the Court and the Forest, vel cetera. I think it more likely that the Founders came to Gilltie Wood either because of the Seed or (if they stumbled upon it by accident) to carry out etheric research in general, rather than as just refugees fleeing trouble and needing a safe haven (as the rumors about them that Jones mentioned claimed). 1. It seems too much of a coincidence that people with their scholarly bent would just happen to stumble upon the Seed while just fleeing trouble. 2. The trouble (if it ever existed) must have died down by now, or else the Donlans wouldn't be going back into the outside world during the summer holiday. 3. In over forty chapters, we have had no discussion of what the trouble was beyond a couple of vague rumors mentioned by Jones, but far more about the Founders' thirst for knowledge, suggesting that they were running towards rather than away from something. (Could they have claimed that they were fleeing something to persuade the forest-folk to let them stay?) 4. Given the suspicion that a lot of the inhabitants of Gilltie Wood hold towards humans, the forest doesn't seem that much of an ideal refuge; certainly, the Founders wound up with just as much a problem (maybe even more) than if they'd stayed in the outside world - enough for them to murder Jeanne and turn her ghost into a guardian.
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Post by Nnelg on Feb 14, 2013 17:03:36 GMT
I think it more likely that the Founders came to Gilltie Wood either because of the Seed or (if they stumbled upon it by accident) to carry out etheric research in general, rather than as just refugees fleeing trouble and needing a safe haven (as the rumors about them that Jones mentioned claimed). I'll admit that carrying out research was probably a general goal of the court even then. But as for what is more likely... Right now, there's so little to work on it's like saying a 10% chance is more likely than 18 other 5% chances. Even though that one theory is twice as likely as any other, (and I'm not pointing out any specific theories, here) the sheer number of possibilities means in general the comparison is futile. And for specific points: 1. It depends on the nature of the Seed. We already have a human around whom extreme coincidences are commonplace; in this case it may even have been Fate. 2. I don't see why anyone should be expected to leave their new home just because they could. If they could; if they even knew it was safe to go back. 3. There has been even less evidence to suggest that the Court even knew where they were going, or what lay within. And there certainly isn't enough evidence in any direction for anything more substantial than a hunch. 4. The Forest wasn't so hostile to begin with. In fact, it's plausible they even invited the Court in as a magnanimous act. (I'm not saying it's likely, though.) Besides, not even the wisest can see all ends, let alone a desperate group of refugees!
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Post by rafk on Feb 15, 2013 0:37:45 GMT
If that were to happen, Kriselia.... Do you think Annie would release Reynard if they tried to separate them, rather than give him a command to obey the Court people (probably what they would ask her to do)? Separate? Perhaps not. But if they were going to kick her out and re-imprison or kill him? Yeah, in a second.
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Post by rafk on Feb 15, 2013 0:54:00 GMT
Incidentally, if the headmaster is going to metaphorically flip the bird to Jones in front of everyone, while obviously Jones doesn't have the emotional response a human would have to this, I also can't see Jones interpreting this as a sign that staying any longer at the Court will be worthwhile for her. Changes indeed. I don't think she'll particularly care that they didn't take her recommendation. Aside from being emotionless by nature, her position at the Court isn't out of any drive to dictate (so she says); she's just in an advisory role in exchange for "a place to return to if need be," or something like that. She won't be emotional about it, but she will understand that the Court's willingness to publically disrespect her means something. Today, being insulted in front of everybody. Tomorrow, being indefinitely suspended in mid-air by an anti-gravity device as an "experiment". The deal may no longer be worth it if they reduce her access and stop doing things which she wants them to do (and, much as she protests, it's pretty clear there are things that she wants).
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tpman
Full Member
Posts: 161
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Post by tpman on Feb 17, 2013 5:26:56 GMT
I got the impression that the Court's founders were fleeing some sort of intellectual persecution. Their ideas did match up with the accepted views of the time and it was during a period in history when having unorthodox views could be rather dangerous. I imagine the views thoughts on some manner of etheric science led them to the Seed Bismuth (I figure it's probably worth capitalizing) as it alienated them from their contemporaries. Edit- Jones backs me up here. Although she seems to be mentioning more of the ideological conflict angle , which I forgot to touch on. www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=582
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Post by Nnelg on Feb 17, 2013 20:12:14 GMT
Honestly, I think arguing over this is moot. For all we know of the Seed Bismuth, it could have been looking for the Court, and not the other way around.
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