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Post by GK Sierra on Nov 26, 2012 20:46:10 GMT
This reminds me of Terry Pratchett's The Hogfather. In it, Death said that if the Hogfather died then "The Sun would not rise", but instead "A flaming ball of gas would have illuminated the Disk". Never really cared for this existentialism myself, so I'm hoping Tom's at least more creative with it. +50 taste points for reading Pratchett. Whoever mentioned Gaiman, +50 for you too. I think Seinfeld can help us with this dilemma.Is that... Ecco the Dolphin? Yeah, you didn't hear? He's moving up in the world, got a new contract to be a God an' everything!
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quoodle
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Posts: 168
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Post by quoodle on Nov 26, 2012 20:49:03 GMT
This is getting clearer - and interesting too:
Is coyote's reality created by the stories about him? He's after all asking for stories all the time. The same would be for the other "powerful creatures". They're not lying - and it's not a matter of point of view - there are "swimming" in different parallel realities. How do they intersect? It seems that the Court could be onto something quite powerful, if they can control the nexus between different realities, created by mere stories.
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Post by tiercel on Nov 27, 2012 1:15:29 GMT
"Jones is a poet and most likely is aware of that ability but chooses not to pursue the skill."
Heh, nice one.
"Who put the stars in the sky?" "Coyote will say it he did it himself / and it is not a lie / accounting for the time I spent in a really long nap / this is the saga of my billion-year rap."
Or, you know.... not.
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Post by Nnelg on Nov 27, 2012 2:10:28 GMT
Absolute humanism, with no boundaries. Oh, I certainly hope not... Gunnerkrigg Court is far to good a story to be ruined that way.Or, was it? What if Annie's fingerprint is like the man on the moon, not really there except in the human psyche? Without human imagination, it just becomes a bunch of ridges and valleys formed by the solar wind If that's the case, why did Chang'e come to visit the Court afterwards? A mark made by solar winds would take time to form, so it would only be a shock to Kat who doesn't look at the moon that regularly, not astronomers who would have been watching. Because she is a god who was also created by humanity? I think you're missing the point... This is getting clearer - and interesting too: Is coyote's reality created by the stories about him? He's after all asking for stories all the time. The same would be for the other "powerful creatures". They're not lying - and it's not a matter of point of view - there are "swimming" in different parallel realities. How do they intersect? It seems that the Court could be onto something quite powerful, if they can control the nexus between different realities, created by mere stories. I imagine more of a quantum effect; it's sort of all at once at the same time, even when they're mutually exclusive. The superposition of all myths and legends...
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Post by Stately Buff-Cookie on Nov 27, 2012 3:52:16 GMT
I'm guessing that without gods like Coyote, there would be no stars in the night sky - merely big balls of fusion arbitrarily distanced from a chunk of rock. Thats an interesting way to look at it. Also, one of the more important things this page does is lend credence to the idea that creating a god from belief is retroactive. That's something to keep in mind, surely.
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Rafael
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Cute and spunky
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Post by Rafael on Nov 27, 2012 3:57:20 GMT
Third panel is beautiful. Would love a print, or at least wallpaper of it. Who's that Woman-Stand-God-Thing? Does anyone have a clue?
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Post by tiercel on Nov 27, 2012 3:58:34 GMT
I imagine more of a quantum effect; it's sort of all at once at the same time, even when they're mutually exclusive. The superposition of all myths and legends... Stands to reason; if different gods / beings of mythological origin from different mythoi can all exist, then presumably their stories/beliefs/powers must overlap and co-exist, for the beings themselves to co-exist. It raises the question of just how many belief systems are extant in the Gunnerkrigg-verse; presumably, if this philosophy holds up in a sense they are all equivalent/equally valid in some sense, from Native American mythos to ancient Greek gods to shamanism to the major religions to Jedis. It may be mortal science features as a competing/coexisting "belief system" (certainly it seems there are points of compatibility between "standard" science and "etheric" science, regardless of whether the latter is used more as "magic" or as "a different kind of science").
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Post by Nnelg on Nov 27, 2012 4:23:19 GMT
Also, one of the more important things this page does is lend credence to the idea that creating a god from belief is retroactive. That's something to keep in mind, surely. Either that, or Tom's going to make a decent case against Coyote's theory as well. I really hope this is the case (although it's a somewhat forlorn hope), and that the issue remains unresolved when the comic ends. That would be much more satisfying than answering it either way, I believe.
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Post by Stately Buff-Cookie on Nov 27, 2012 5:33:14 GMT
The thing is, popular opinion on what was true in terms of science has been revised many times, and it was revised with proof DESPITE what popular belief was at the time. Gunnerkrigg seems to like borrowing enough of real world science that this could be true in Gunnerverse as well. As such, it's unlikely that what science finds is shaped by belief.
This also puts some older things in to perspective if you keep that in mind. Like the magitech computer that the higher ups in the Court wouldn't recognize because it still utilized the ether. Why would you, as a scientist, trust a device that has it's foundations built on something that can be changed by thinking about it too hard? From a certain perspective, it's untrustworthy. One day you could wake up and it could simply not work because human thought changed. Even if such a thing happened in two hundred years, you can't come to rely on such a thing for your society. The day it stops is the day your society flies apart.
Keep in mind I'm just trying to look through the eyes of those that rejected the device. That might be partially how they felt.
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Post by Nnelg on Nov 27, 2012 6:20:00 GMT
Why would you, as a scientist, trust a device that has it's foundations built on something that can be changed by thinking about it too hard? You know, this is actually the only way I've been able to rationalize the Scientific Method not being applicable to ethereal stuff. The Scientific Method is applicable to anything with a consistent set of rules... But if these rules change based on what the observer(s) think, then it becomes nigh-impossible to form a valid hypothesis (since forming a new hypothesis changes the rules, requiring a new round of testing that will likely lead to a new hypothesis... thus starting the cycle over again). Certainly, it would be enough to drive most analytic minds insane long before they could ever figure it out.
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Post by baphomet on Nov 27, 2012 7:07:33 GMT
So everything etheric is created with history, even if those histories are contradictory. I see no reason to believe Jones isn't the same way. It seems like, rather than being a manifestation of human understanding via myth like coyote et al, Jones is a manifestation of human understanding via observation. Thus, she was created with a history that matches observable reality. She might even be a manifestation of human understanding via observation at whatever level that understanding is currently, changing as new knowledge becomes available. That is, when we discovered the dinosaurs, she retroactively existed in a past that contained them, and everyone's knowledge of her past changed accordingly, including her own knowledge of her past.
If this were true, of course she wouldn't tell humans things they don't know yet. She doesn't actually know either. She thinks she does, because observing everything is part of the "myth" that spawned her. She either has access to all true knowledge but is compelled not to talk about it, she has false knowledge that she doesn't know is false, or she simply has gaps in her understanding that she is compelled not to notice. I'm inclined towards the first option, because of the "minconceptions about dinosaurs" thing. Though ultimately it doesn't matter which one is true. She's not going to spill the beans no matter what you do. You can't torture her or threaten her loved ones because she feels neither pain nor love. Even if technology advances to the point that we can read thoughts by measuring brain activity, it won't work on her because, as we already saw, her insides aren't observable.
This would also explain why she looks like a modern human. Maybe she didn't always. But, what does it matter? That's how she is now, and her history reflects that now even if it didn't before.
Finally, this also explains why she's "blank" to Annie's ether-vision. She's based on the idea of understanding the natural world, and things that aren't part of the natural world have no place being part of her.
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Post by ctso74 on Nov 27, 2012 7:38:30 GMT
What if the science is also true because humanity has come to believe it? Absolute humanism, with no boundaries. Collectively we have determined the rules of the existence that bounds us. If we change our minds later that will also become the truth. Reminds me of the Technocracy's Consensus from Classic World of Darkness. Come to think of it, the Court might have a lot in common with the Technocrats. Hmmm...
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Post by rafk on Nov 27, 2012 8:03:53 GMT
I'm guessing that without gods like Coyote, there would be no stars in the night sky - merely big balls of fusion arbitrarily distanced from a chunk of rock. Ah yes, the Hogfather argument... that if the Hogfather died, the sun wouldn't come up. Instead, a mere ball of flaming gas would illuminate the world. Like Susan, I always felt that was a bit of a semantics argument rather than anything profound. Edit: Ah, I see that in the intervening posts other people have already cited the Hogfather thing. Ah well. Should have known other Gunnerkrigg fans would also be Pratchett fans! Besides, I think we discussed this when Coyote's "Great Secret" was revealed, the paralells with the theory of narrative causality from Discworld. As to Jones' occasional imprecisions with langugage, I assume that's her imitation of human idiom. She would know precisely the difference between "always" and "for the last 4 million years".
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quoodle
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Post by quoodle on Nov 27, 2012 8:04:17 GMT
There is a way for the reality of an object to change. No need for parallel universes and such.
It's through stories. Stories carry a meaning outside of physical reality. Make up a story that Coyote orders the stars - and what was a mere random ordering, or perhaps just unordered clumps of stars - now has a meaning - through the story - it has a moral of patience. A truth is given legs, so to speak, and to those who know the story, it reaches back in time. Stars are different, shadows are different, animals talk, and so on.
A star in Orion's belt - is just a star without the constellation named, and the story of Orion.
Jones is a mystery - and for the most part has no story. Hence, to her, it's just "stars" in the astronomical sense. Coyote was right - Jones is the perfect example. She proves by counterexample that Coyote is not a god, but a story. No wonder Ysengrin was upset. But he need not be, for stories will continue as long as Man exists.
Unless the Court has its way.
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Post by smjjames on Nov 27, 2012 14:59:32 GMT
Third panel is beautiful. Would love a print, or at least wallpaper of it. Who's that Woman-Stand-God-Thing? Does anyone have a clue? Looks egyptian maybe? Or if the hot coals/embers she is tossing is an indicator, maybe a fire goddess? Could be a goddess from a long dead and unrecorded culture (aka toms own creation).
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Rafael
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Post by Rafael on Nov 27, 2012 16:38:45 GMT
Could be a goddess from a long dead and unrecorded culture (aka toms own creation). That was my first thought, but I don't know a lot about mythology, so I figured she was just from a culture I'm not familiar with.
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