notacat
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That's not me, that's my late cat Mimi: I'm not nearly so cute
Posts: 188
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Post by notacat on Oct 26, 2012 23:22:28 GMT
I'm immediately reminded of this curious natural phenomenon. I'm doubt it is truly Jones' origin, but the resonance between it, the chapter title and this page are pleasantly strong. What do you think? I fixed your link for you...interesting, yes.
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alexh
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Post by alexh on Oct 26, 2012 23:34:09 GMT
I registered to say that my personal theory is that Jones is a reimagining of the root cause of the myth of Lilith. Her way with men could be interpreted as seduction by the fearful masses. She seems to have a tendency to latch on to children, which could square with Lilith as a child stealer/eater. In some myths she is made of clay, in others she is described as dispassionate. She's linked to Lamia, a monster doomed to never close its eyes. There's some description of her as a demon of the desert. It's hardly solid evidence, surely less robust than others that people here have put forth. But it's still my pet theory. I like it! Welcome to the forum! More information here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LilithI'm immediately reminded of this curious natural phenomenon. I'm doubt it is truly Jones' origin, but the resonance between it, the chapter title and this page are pleasantly strong. What do you think? I fixed your link for you...interesting, yes. Oh cool! I like this theory too!
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Post by Mitth'raw'nuruodo on Oct 26, 2012 23:39:02 GMT
He could still do tens of millenia and hundreds of millenia, after that are millions of years, however, I think we are going to stop the time travelling within a strip or two. So far we haven't seen him include any numbers, written or symbols in the title, granted, my predictions could be based on a desire to see whence and where she did spring forth. The fact that she starts from the right of the page, going to the left, suggests she's traveling from east to west, so leaving China. And! We know she ends up in Rome, after all. Logical. Also: welcome to the forums.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Oct 27, 2012 1:08:32 GMT
Just for those keeping score, I skimmed the comments and there is a string of people who are jumping ship on the Galatea theory because of this comic. (waggles eyebrows ominously)
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maximkat
Full Member
Look at my face, my face is amazing
Posts: 111
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Post by maximkat on Oct 27, 2012 7:15:02 GMT
I'm calling it: next page will be Jones and cave paintings.
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Post by starburst98 on Oct 27, 2012 8:12:38 GMT
what if she is Lillith?
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Post by legion on Oct 27, 2012 10:29:03 GMT
The myth of Lilith is of relatively recent creation though; the motif of Lilith as the first wife of Adam doesn't appear before the 8th century AD, and is pretty specific to Judaism.
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Post by Freederick on Oct 27, 2012 11:18:40 GMT
Nobody has yet asked: is she going TO China or FROM it? I suspect the next page will show us which. The fact that she starts from the right of the page, going to the left, suggests she's traveling from east to west, so leaving China. And! We know she ends up in Rome, after all. She is definitely walking from west to east. Consider the direction of the shadow in the center panel*; the Gobi desert is in the northern hemisphere, so the sun is shining from the south. The location of the mountains on the horizon might offer additional clues; but there are so many mountain ranges around the Gobi that it is hard to tell which ones are shown. The mountains at five o'clock (relative to her travel direction) are probably the Altai; but as far as the ones at two o'clock are concerned, it's a toss-up. Tentatively these are the Qilian; in that case she is moving SSE, and the time of day is late afternoon. At any rate, she is making for China. This is as much as I can squeeze out of the imagery without an actual photogrammetric analysis---unless someone out there can recognize ridge profiles on these mountains. * (To forestall predictable objections: what appears to be the shadow in the other panels is a mirage-reflection in the shimmering air. But in the center panel, that is the actual shadow.)
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Post by ultrabluesky on Oct 27, 2012 14:02:27 GMT
In the comments, Triston makes a really interesting suggestion that I don't want to be lost:
"The more we see Jones in these various points in time not really doing anything, the more I become convinced that she's one of the classic "Observer" entities: not here to do anything herself but rather her existence as an observer legitimizes the existence of other things. (in this case probably humanity)
Speaking of which it's interesting that this archetype has been around long before quantum science effectively proved it factual.
If we assume Coyote's theory to be true, she is probably the prototypical concept of a nurturing figure (Great Mother etc); we see her raise multiple people from childhood, (Langdon, Eglamore, and even now she takes on a nurturing role for Annie and the other medium candidates) and, well, she always has the same form of a middle-aged woman, the perfect age for a surrogate mother or wet nurse."
But maybe that's who 'Galatea' is? But anyway, Triston's idea fits Coyote's name for Jones.
I'm also realizing that this is a reversal of Coyote's existence: Her existence legitimizes Humanity, whereas humans legitimize His existence. But, aside from all the jokes about 'rolling stones', she is the rock on which we stand? I dunno... But I like this chapter a lot. It might even be my favorite.
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Post by Per on Oct 27, 2012 14:47:11 GMT
Speaking of which it's interesting that this archetype has been around long before quantum science effectively proved it factual. Except that this doesn't make any sense.
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itg
New Member
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Post by itg on Oct 27, 2012 15:57:53 GMT
The myth of Lilith is of relatively recent creation though; the motif of Lilith as the first wife of Adam doesn't appear before the 8th century AD, and is pretty specific to Judaism. Sure, of course. But does the origin time of a myth really matter that much? Antiquity doesn't really count much for me when it comes to myths; they're all myths, and they're insights into how a culture perceived the world, not a historical guide. Sumerian myths are older than Greek myths- but both are good source material for fiction. A dozen myths across a dozen cultures across a dozen eras could have their root in the same being. Considering Jones is supposed to be a new creation, I don't think we're going to find the story ending with Lilith and Adam. I don't believe that the Court's cosmology begins that way, with God creating Adam/Eve/maybe Lilith. What I meant instead is that Jones is an entity across the ages that inspired the Lilith and Lamia myths. Stories here and there that only had scraps of the truth, magnified by fear, superstition, or awe into something new. The myths are about her, but they're by no means accurate.
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Post by zimmyzims on Oct 27, 2012 19:59:03 GMT
The myth of Lilith is of relatively recent creation though; the motif of Lilith as the first wife of Adam doesn't appear before the 8th century AD, and is pretty specific to Judaism. Sure, of course. But does the origin time of a myth really matter that much? Antiquity doesn't really count much for me when it comes to myths; they're all myths, and they're insights into how a culture perceived the world, not a historical guide. Sumerian myths are older than Greek myths- but both are good source material for fiction. A dozen myths across a dozen cultures across a dozen eras could have their root in the same being. Considering Jones is supposed to be a new creation, I don't think we're going to find the story ending with Lilith and Adam. I don't believe that the Court's cosmology begins that way, with God creating Adam/Eve/maybe Lilith. Hmmm... the point is, I think, that we have already passed that period, yet Jones is there. So, she is older than the myth, and.... "What I meant instead is that Jones is an entity across the ages that inspired the Lilith and Lamia myths. Stories here and there that only had scraps of the truth, magnified by fear, superstition, or awe into something new. The myths are about her, but they're by no means accurate." cool, but wouldn't this be the opposite to Coyote's theory? For example, Coyote himself is nothing but a construction of myths. There were very ordinary coyotes. Then there were myths. And only then there was this bastard. Jones would have been a mythical being before the myths, thus not their construction. And it would prove Coyote wrong.
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Post by snuffa on Oct 27, 2012 21:04:10 GMT
cool, but wouldn't this be the opposite to Coyote's theory? For example, Coyote himself is nothing but a construction of myths. There were very ordinary coyotes. Then there were myths. And only then there was this bastard. Jones would have been a mythical being before the myths, thus not their construction. And it would prove Coyote wrong. oh, but didn't Annie think that Jones' existence contradicts Coyote's myth theory?
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Post by zimmyzims on Oct 27, 2012 21:57:24 GMT
cool, but wouldn't this be the opposite to Coyote's theory? For example, Coyote himself is nothing but a construction of myths. There were very ordinary coyotes. Then there were myths. And only then there was this bastard. Jones would have been a mythical being before the myths, thus not their construction. And it would prove Coyote wrong. oh, but didn't Annie think that Jones' existence contradicts Coyote's myth theory? Yes, but that was before the better-knowing Coyote told her its the other way around and caused Annie to go and ask Jones the question that gave us, amongst other things, the page we discuss now.
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Post by warrl on Oct 28, 2012 4:03:11 GMT
The myth of Lilith is of relatively recent creation though; the motif of Lilith as the first wife of Adam doesn't appear before the 8th century AD, and is pretty specific to Judaism. But according to that myth, Lilith came into existence very early on in the history of the world. Coyote also came into existence retroactively. So no problem there.
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jon77
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Post by jon77 on Oct 28, 2012 11:39:04 GMT
Even the most firmly packed sand or dirt would give way at least a little bit to someone heavy enough to smash a wooden pier. Either that's an exposed rock bed (which I can't necessarily rule out), or she isn't much heavier than a human at this point. Which doesn't mean her weight is a function of time, as such. It could be a function of human population, either total or in her vicinity. Or it could be a function of etheric potential around her. (Of course, if Coyote's theory is true, those two are one and the same.) This is the direction I was going. I think her weight is a function of how much she has observed and experienced. From a literary perspective, her weight has been mentioned several times, and is of some significance, even if we don't know why. So if Tom put in a panel showing her feet not sinking even one millimeter into something which looks exactly like sand, I'd say it's a significant comment on her current weight, rather than saying she's actually walking on an exposed rock bed in a completely flat plain which happens to look exactly like sand.
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Post by artezzatrigger on Oct 28, 2012 12:40:48 GMT
So she literally carries the weight of the world (on her shoulders)?
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itg
New Member
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Post by itg on Oct 28, 2012 15:35:19 GMT
cool, but wouldn't this be the opposite to Coyote's theory? For example, Coyote himself is nothing but a construction of myths. There were very ordinary coyotes. Then there were myths. And only then there was this bastard. Jones would have been a mythical being before the myths, thus not their construction. And it would prove Coyote wrong. Maybe, but Coyote strikes me as the epitome of an unreliable narrator. I wouldn't take his word as truth; he does what he does and says what he says for his own ends. Perhaps there's some truth to what he says, that Jones's qualities have changed with the perceptions of the people around her, but I'm not going to assume that what Coyote said is absolute truth until I hear it from a more reliable source. Even Ysengrim, Coyote's right hand man, isn't sold on the idea, although his reasons for why are personal and emotional, not logical. I'm not saying my theory is right. In my first post, I said that there are much more robust theories people have been throwing around here. She's probably not the inspiration for the Lilith myths, there are just a few shared elements and I think it would be a very cool contrast to the generally accepted ultra-seductress view of Lilith. But I'm not willing to accept "Coyote says that's not how it works, though" as an argument. Coyote is a trickster god, after all.
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Post by zimmyzims on Oct 28, 2012 18:25:50 GMT
cool, but wouldn't this be the opposite to Coyote's theory? For example, Coyote himself is nothing but a construction of myths. There were very ordinary coyotes. Then there were myths. And only then there was this bastard. Jones would have been a mythical being before the myths, thus not their construction. And it would prove Coyote wrong. Maybe, but Coyote strikes me as the epitome of an unreliable narrator. I wouldn't take his word as truth; he does what he does and says what he says for his own ends. Jones herself said that Coyote does not lie (or is no liar, what was the exact wording?). Ysengrin, by his own words, barely couldn't bear Coyote's theory to be true. Whether it is true in general or not, what Coyote said about Jones should be true. And what he said suggests that Jones-the-mythical-being has not preceded the told myth.
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Post by warrl on Oct 28, 2012 20:06:08 GMT
Jones herself said that Coyote does not lie (or is no liar, what was the exact wording?). Ysengrin, by his own words, barely couldn't bear Coyote's theory to be true. Whether it is true in general or not, what Coyote said about Jones should be true. And what he said suggests that Jones-the-mythical-being has not preceded the told myth. Coyote does not lie - but that doesn't mean he isn't wrong. It merely means that he thinks he's right.
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cass
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by cass on Oct 28, 2012 23:56:47 GMT
Jones herself said that Coyote does not lie (or is no liar, what was the exact wording?). Ysengrin, by his own words, barely couldn't bear Coyote's theory to be true. Whether it is true in general or not, what Coyote said about Jones should be true. And what he said suggests that Jones-the-mythical-being has not preceded the told myth. Assuming that Jones isn't lying, she may be mistaken in the belief that Coyote doesn't lie. It just requires that Coyote be a better liar than she is a detective.
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Post by ultrabluesky on Oct 29, 2012 4:16:01 GMT
Speaking of which it's interesting that this archetype has been around long before quantum science effectively proved it factual. Except that this doesn't make any sense. There's a theory within Quantum Field Theory that states that particles do not exist until observed.... I'm not sure if Triston was alluding to that, or general Quantum Measuring. This isn't a Solipsism, so much as a fun--and mostly incorrect--way of interpreting 'you don't know where it is until you measure it, and since you did not measure it before, you cannot say for certain where it was', to which some add: 'if it was even there before you measured it.' This is a forum post about The Observer and connections to Quantum Theory. This is an article about whether or not the universe exists when we are not looking at it. In science the whole thing is fun to play around with, and in a universe where the laws of physics do not behave as they do here it might be something serious, but for now, it's just absurd.
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Post by zimmyzims on Oct 29, 2012 8:27:01 GMT
Jones herself said that Coyote does not lie (or is no liar, what was the exact wording?). Ysengrin, by his own words, barely couldn't bear Coyote's theory to be true. Whether it is true in general or not, what Coyote said about Jones should be true. And what he said suggests that Jones-the-mythical-being has not preceded the told myth. Coyote does not lie - but that doesn't mean he isn't wrong. It merely means that he thinks he's right. But what he knows about Jones should be right even if his theory was false otherwise. He knows something to the effect that Jones has been created by myths. He is quite assured isn't he - "go and ask her!" That command is why we are shown all this history and prehistory of Jones, and it would be intuitively quite strange if then after just few pages the answer to the question would be, "no, Coyote just doesn't know squat about anything". I think there definitely, just for the sake of the integrity of this story, must be something in Coyote's theory. At minimum, we should get a good explanation why not and why is he telling this theory of his (of which Ysengrin at least has been conscious for ages now) if it is simply rubbish. And why does he think that Jones proves it. Apparently he himself believes it, no?
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