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Post by OrzBrain on Sept 18, 2012 3:49:25 GMT
I kinda wonder if Coyote will just up and tell Annie that he took Y's memory next time they meet. Keeping it secret might be rather hard in the long run.
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Post by emanon on Sept 18, 2012 5:50:17 GMT
I think I comprehend what's really going on here.
Remember, Coyote is a being of belief. That is, Coyote is the literal thought-energy of many Native American tribes' belief about what Coyote is. Therefore Coyote is literally _bound_ to these limitations of what is believed of him. People for thousands of years believe him to be a trickster, so he's hedged into actions limited to that.
Coyote cannot act outside the boundaries of those beliefs. They literally hedge him in. He could not say, do an act of selflessness, nor could he do an act of pointless, wanton rage of violence. Order, seriousness are also out. Thus Coyote literally has no free will outside his hedged bounds, nor does he ever have any character growth since anything that might lead him beyond the beliefs others have of him has no effect on him whatsoever.
But...
Theft is very much the act of a trickster, be it food, items, people, or even thought. Thought and belief are the very stuff Coyote is made of. If Coyote seeks to grow outside of his limited, hedged boundaries he must do two things:
1. Steal thought directly. Thought and belief being the energy that he's made of, if he takes it and adds it to him, it becomes him. Hence, he influences Ys into violence, then steals that violent thought, making it part of him, he becomes capable of violence.
2. Get others to think new, different things of him. By doing this, others will expand his capability of action. Coyote cajoling Annie to tell him a story wasn't a trivial act of narcissism to be glossed over as comic would seem to portray it as, but an important plot point. Coyote was giving Annie the figurative pen to draw him bigger options and boundaries.
Coyote probably rails against his limitations privately. Think of all the great things he could do with no limitations! All that power, unchecked! So he is going about surreptitiously poking and prodding, enacting plans to expand his boundaries through new belief about him and theft of capabilities he doesn't have. Perhaps hoping to become an unbounded deity capable of anything.
I think Coyote is projecting a bit when he remarks the Court is Man's attempt to become God. It is likely Coyote who seeks to literally become God.
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krael
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Post by krael on Sept 18, 2012 9:41:40 GMT
wel, but if you say coyote is limited by human's myths about him, wouldn't not ony his capabilities but also his intentions be limited to those of a trickster being? And then he wouldn't even want to incorporate violence into his repertoire.
hence, I think you're reading a bit to much into the memory theft; Mysef, I reckon it is just a means to deprive Ysengrin of something, and not so much a way for coyote to gain some power for himself.
And I'm not convinced we're dealing with a god that tries to improve his own religion to gain power anyway, though I must say it IS a nice motivation beyond 'just the hell of it' (which could suffice for my trickster gods I guess)
On the topic of Coyote being limited/kept in check and the general question why he doesn't just strongarm: I want to forward the notion that he isn't the only god present in the universe. we have a fairly good indication that Odin exists somewhere too, for instance (brynni's 'old man') and we have pictures of a chinese moon godess. For all we know Jones is some kind of judge between both sides, imposing some 'fair play'. In other words: coyote's power might not be as unmatched within the current playing field as people seem to think, if you're open to the idea that we don't know all the players involved yet. As another example: consider Renard and Ysengrin; both are myths-become-god themselves, obviously, but they clearly have a coyote god in the vincinity that outmatches them.
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leah
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Post by leah on Sept 18, 2012 13:14:00 GMT
Renard is a god?
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Post by emanon on Sept 18, 2012 13:34:55 GMT
wel, but if you say coyote is limited by human's myths about him, wouldn't not ony his capabilities but also his intentions be limited to those of a trickster being? Tricksters do nothing but scheme to elevate themselves above all others. That's their entire idiom. Ys is nothing but a tool to him. Tricksters don't give gifts unless those gifts are cursed monkey paw-like harmful or very self-serving in some way. Coyote is clever and smart and has probably done something no other 'deity' level being in the comic has, he's figured out what he really is and more importantly, how he can improve/expand/grow himself beyond his initial boundaries. This makes him very dangerous. At least, that's my current thinking anyways.
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Post by emanon on Sept 18, 2012 13:40:57 GMT
Well, thoughtform is a better term. Collective belief-energy representing the Reynard the fox mythology humans believed when told as children. Of course the figure, Reynard the Fox is much, much more diminished than deity-level, so Reynardine is far below his fellow, deity-level sibling, Coyote.
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Post by Lightice on Sept 18, 2012 13:46:37 GMT
Tricksters do nothing but scheme to elevate themselves above all others. That's their entire idiom. I kind of disagree about that. Many (most?) trickster figures of myth and fairy tale tell about the little guy getting back at the big bullies. They make mockery of the holy cows and mess up the carefully laid plans of wicked schemers. They are typically amoral, only out for their own amusement, but they tend to be the only respite from the strict hierarchies and unbreakable traditions of the normal mythology. Coyote has never shown ambition to rule over others before this. He's barely paid any attention to those who would see him as an authority figure, and rather played with someone who doesn't care about his status as a god. People are suddenly writing him off as a power-hungry schemer, but there's really no indication about this at all. Rather, it feels like many people here see him doing a villainous thing, and attaching any other villainous traits that come to their minds to him because of it. I still don't believe that Coyote wants to control Ysengrin; rather I feel that he wants to be rid of things that make Ys less fun. The results are deeply disturbing, and Coyote is one creepy god-entity, but he's not a mustache-twirling supervillain out to conquer the world.
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Post by Per on Sept 18, 2012 16:58:34 GMT
I have to hand it to those who said beforehand Coyote would make Ysengrin attack Annie. I thought it was unlikely because it would discontinue and undercut the character development between Ysengrin and Annie so far (though of course we don't know the exact ramifications yet). I can see two ways of interpreting what we've seen here. Either Coyote is not just flippant, but uncaringly abusive at best and diabolically manipulative at worst, and in either case a villain by human standards; or else he doesn't actually cause Ysengrin to snap (although he may be able to predict it, like he did here, and not care to immediately stop it), but just cleans up afterwards, and is thus still benign after a fashion. After these last few pages I lean towards villain.
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krael
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Post by krael on Sept 18, 2012 18:51:37 GMT
Coyote is clever and smart and has probably done something no other 'deity' level being in the comic has, he's figured out what he really is and more importantly, how he can improve/expand/grow himself beyond his initial boundaries. This makes him very dangerous. though this would make a great plot hook, I think in general all ethereal beings of some importance are on to this. The psychopomps, for instance, know exactly whats going on as well. ysengrin nows it too, (which is why he is so agitated) and even the puny humans of the court are on to something. Further, we haven't seen coyote grow in power level so far, I think.
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krael
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Post by krael on Sept 18, 2012 18:52:46 GMT
Coyote is one creepy god-entity, but he's not a mustache-twirling supervillain out to conquer the world. I think this is a crucial observation to keep us on track
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Post by legion on Sept 18, 2012 20:02:07 GMT
And so we're having the bonus page tomorrow, and the title page on friday, with the first page on the new chapter on monday... for what, the 7th time in a row now?
Tom you trickster!
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Post by GK Sierra on Sept 18, 2012 21:25:34 GMT
Coyote is one creepy god-entity, but he's not a mustache-twirling supervillain out to conquer the world. I think this is a crucial observation to keep us on track I'm not saying he's stroking a white longhair and muttering evilly, or that he wants to conquer the world, but he has sinister motives and zero scruples. While he has no shortage of good excuses for this behavior, he certainly seems like the primary adversary, although to what extent is still unclear.
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Post by rcrantz on Sept 19, 2012 9:18:58 GMT
People are suddenly writing him off as a power-hungry schemer, but there's really no indication about this at all. Rather, it feels like many people here see him doing a villainous thing, and attaching any other villainous traits that come to their minds to him because of it. I still don't believe that Coyote wants to control Ysengrin; rather I feel that he wants to be rid of things that make Ys less fun. The results are deeply disturbing, and Coyote is one creepy god-entity, but he's not a mustache-twirling supervillain out to conquer the world. I think you're right that Coyote isn't necessarily power-hungry, but I think he is a schemer. It seems clear that Coyote has an agenda. I don't think it's to control the world, but I do believe he's far less scatterbrained than he lets on. Generally I assume that Coyote is inscrutable, chaotic, and amoral rather than villainous. This means his agenda is probably not obvious or predictable, and he is clearly willing to use sinister and manipulative means to achieve his goals. It also means his goal is probably not something like 'to destroy the Court.' Perhaps he wishes to add some chaos to a world that has become stagnant and boring for him. Whatever the case, it seems clear that he is hoping to use Annie as a tool to achieve his ends somehow. I believe he gave her the Coyote Tooth for a reason, let her live in the forest for a reason, and told her the Great Secret (and to talk to Jones) for a reason. It would make sense if these were all working towards the same goal. Unfortunately, while it's possible to divine the means Coyote is using to achieve his goals, his goal is as yet as inscrutable as he is. This chapter highlights that, though he is capable of appearing friendly, his methods and aims are very much alien. Trusting him is most likely a terrible mistake.
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krael
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Post by krael on Sept 19, 2012 10:11:14 GMT
We could try to summarize what we know of coyote's goals. Things I learn from book one: -He set up camp in the wood when the court had been allready founded, and took a stake in the argument between animal and man by creating the annan divide -He tried to make Reynardine more powerfull, and tried to win him back to the forrest when he got stuck in the court. (note that the assimilated robot seemed to return to the court with relocating renard as it's primary mission) -Renard suspects that coyote was up to something when he initiated the diplomatic visit. It might be important to note though, that it was only during this visit that coyote learned of antimony's existance. That means that Annie was not the primary reason for Coyote restarting interacting with the court after a long period of time. -That said he clearly took an interest in her right from the start, so he recognizes her as some pawn in the field. This could be her just being Surma's daughter (who was a player herself), but on a more general level Annie seems interesting ( Mort calls it attractive) to ether-beings.
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krael
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Post by krael on Sept 19, 2012 13:27:39 GMT
Ey guys... Coyotes theory... about how the ether is build of dead humans... whats up with Ketrak, then, who dumps insects into the afterlife???
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Post by atteSmythe on Sept 19, 2012 16:54:02 GMT
I think it's not that the ether is built only of dead humans, but rather that the humans dump the most thought-energy into the ether.
I mean, we have Ketrak, who to the best of our knowledge guides all insects. Yet we have seen or met at least 6 psychopomps who guide humans. Coyote seems to think that the disease of intellect is uniquely human, so it may well be that only they 'cause the world to turn.'
Humanity's curse may be that we really are as unique as we're fond of thinking ourselves. The elves and faeries, all etherically-tuned creatures, may all be manifestations of human thought-energy in the ether.
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krael
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Post by krael on Sept 19, 2012 17:11:27 GMT
Hmm, yess, ok. That makes me realize that the fairies (read ether) taking human form again at the court is an interesting variant of reincarnation.
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Post by exdevlin on Sept 19, 2012 19:11:21 GMT
Maybe the Ether is made up of the life essence of all living beings, but humans are the ones who manage to manifest things from it with some amount of substance?
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Post by Mezzaphor on Sept 22, 2012 6:01:03 GMT
-He set up camp in the wood when the court had been allready founded, and took a stake in the argument between animal and man by creating the annan divide I wonder how the Gillitie-Gunnerkrigg conflict would have played out if Coyote hadn't intervened. Earlier chapters led us to assume that Coyote was separating the two sides to prevent the conflict from growing worse, but what if that wasn't his goal? What if the two sides would have been able to work out a compromise on their own—and Coyote's separation of the sides prevented this from happening, prolonging the conflict for generations?
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Post by todd on Sept 22, 2012 10:54:47 GMT
I wonder how the Gillitie-Gunnerkrigg conflict would have played out if Coyote hadn't intervened. Earlier chapters led us to assume that Coyote was separating the two sides to prevent the conflict from growing worse, but what if that wasn't his goal? What if the two sides would have been able to work out a compromise on their own—and Coyote's separation of the sides prevented this from happening, prolonging the conflict for generations? That seems likely. And his making the chasm would have fitted that purpose nicely - providing a physical feature separating them that would have encouraged suspicion and distrust towards each other, but would at the same time make it difficult for them to fight each other. A way of keeping a conflict that he found amusing going without the danger that the two sides might wipe each other out and end the show too early.
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Post by warrl on Sept 24, 2012 7:23:07 GMT
wel, but if you say coyote is limited by human's myths about him, wouldn't not ony his capabilities but also his intentions be limited to those of a trickster being? Tricksters do nothing but scheme to elevate themselves above all others. That's their entire idiom. No, the entire idiom is that tricksters trick. To what end and with what style, varies. There are viciously violent tricksters (Loki), bored pranksters (Coyote, usually), greedy but non-violent tricksters (Renard, usually), educational tricksters (Raven, usually), and a few other varieties.
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Post by smjjames on Sept 24, 2012 7:40:18 GMT
I think it's not that the ether is built only of dead humans, but rather that the humans dump the most thought-energy into the ether. I mean, we have Ketrak, who to the best of our knowledge guides all insects. Yet we have seen or met at least 6 psychopomps who guide humans. Coyote seems to think that the disease of intellect is uniquely human, so it may well be that only they 'cause the world to turn.' Humanity's curse may be that we really are as unique as we're fond of thinking ourselves. The elves and faeries, all etherically-tuned creatures, may all be manifestations of human thought-energy in the ether. It would be safe to assume that there is a psychopomp for just about every culture and religion. Oddly enough, the ancient Egyptian psychopomp is still around, but I guess that could be explained by that one being the psychopomp for the descendants of the people of Egypt, even long after the culture she came from disappeared. For the deal with Ketrak, I guess even creatures with the tiniest amount of brain cells (whether there are psychopomps for single called creatures and bacteria, I have no clue) have Gunnerkriggs equivalent of a soul and return to the ether upon death.
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krael
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Post by krael on Sept 24, 2012 8:26:16 GMT
I think it's not that the ether is built only of dead humans, but rather that the humans dump the most thought-energy into the ether. I mean, we have Ketrak, who to the best of our knowledge guides all insects. Yet we have seen or met at least 6 psychopomps who guide humans. Coyote seems to think that the disease of intellect is uniquely human, so it may well be that only they 'cause the world to turn.' Humanity's curse may be that we really are as unique as we're fond of thinking ourselves. The elves and faeries, all etherically-tuned creatures, may all be manifestations of human thought-energy in the ether. It would be safe to assume that there is a psychopomp for just about every culture and religion. Oddly enough, the ancient Egyptian psychopomp is still around, but I guess that could be explained by that one being the psychopomp for the descendants of the people of Egypt, even long after the culture she came from disappeared. For the deal with Ketrak, I guess even creatures with the tiniest amount of brain cells (whether there are psychopomps for single called creatures and bacteria, I have no clue) have Gunnerkriggs equivalent of a soul and return to the ether upon death. yeah maybe, though coyote specifically stated that it's human's disease to generate eather.
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