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Post by Lightice on Sept 14, 2012 9:43:38 GMT
How so? The court is represented by Jones, Annie, Kat, the Donlans, Eglamore, Robot, Jack, Zimmy, Gamma, Parley, Smitty and around about 30 sympathetic likeable characters. They don't represent the Court. They are subjects, students, employees and in Jones's case, completely independent. The Court itself is represented by ominous, barely seen principal, agents and directors, and what most people think when they think of the Court leadership is the original founders who murdered Jeanne and generally acted like huge jerks. I don't think that the Court is evil, but I do think that both it and the Forest have plenty of good and bad going for them.
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Post by hslugs on Sept 14, 2012 9:45:46 GMT
"Remember, Coyote ain't your bro". Something along those lines.
But I wonder why people immediately think it's an act of evil. Ys goes berserk, then Coyote deletes his memory about the case. Undoing it. Maybe that's what keeps Ys (relatively) sane? Ys clearly doesn't like it, but come and think of it, medical interventions are rarely pleasant for the patient.
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gary
Full Member
Posts: 121
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Post by gary on Sept 14, 2012 9:54:01 GMT
They don't represent the Court. They are subjects, students, employees and in Jones's case, completely independent. The Court itself is represented by ominous, barely seen principal, agents and directors, and what most people think when they think of the Court leadership is the original founders who murdered Jeanne and generally acted like huge jerks. I don't think that the Court is evil, but I do think that both it and the Forest have plenty of good and bad going for them. The court has a shady past yes but all the current staff are portrayed relatively sympathetically and we've never seen them given morally dubious orders by the higher ups. The 'evil-court' arcs are basically about the modern day inhabitants coming to terms with the evil of their ancestors more than anything else. Compare that to the forest where we have literally yet to meet a sympathetic character who doesn't straight away defect to the court. The only forest patriots we've met (outside of Annie's mental image of Kamlen) are Ysengrin and Coyote who have both done much much worse things than any living character on the court's side. And we're told that Shadow 2's people are hateful bigots who rejected him for being too nice. The idea that somehow the previous thousand odd pages painted the court as evil and the forest as good and this is just rebalancing the scales seems utterly bizarre to me. It's the forest who have from pretty much day one been written as the darker shade of gray. If it has good going for it, we haven't really seen it.
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Post by snoodette on Sept 14, 2012 9:58:26 GMT
Another long time lurker drawn out of the woodwork by this chapter.
Am actually feeling quie upset now, I was definately siding with the "Coyote orchestrating Ys' attack" school of thought but was not expecting this further exploitation of Ys. I too am interested in how much of a memory he removed and why. Just the attack to make Ys feels better? All of his memory about his friedship with Annie so both of them turn back to him again rather than each other? Something inbetween and for unknown (but almost certainly despicable) reasons?
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Post by Alexandragon on Sept 14, 2012 10:01:41 GMT
O____O Poor, poor Y'...
Next chapter will be "Total recall"))))
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Post by Lightice on Sept 14, 2012 10:12:29 GMT
But I wonder why people immediately think it's an act of evil. Ys goes berserk, then Coyote deletes his memory about the case. Undoing it. Maybe that's what keeps Ys (relatively) sane? Because it feels more like that Coyote is trying to keep Ysengrin "fun" by preventing him from learning from his actions. If he doesn't know the extent of his own temper, he'll keep going berserk over and over again. Coyote seems to be keeping him from learning from his experiences and growing as a person. Though he may be indeed thinking that he's doing Ys a favour, based on the fact that he's removing pain and confusion. The court has a shady past yes but all the current staff are portrayed relatively sympathetically and we've never seen them given morally dubious orders by the higher ups. There have been hints of sinister workings still going on within the Court. There has been speculation that Zimmy may be a failed experiment, for example. And it's definate and certain that they treat sapient, feeling robots as mere tools with no concern for their life and wellbeing. The Forest has been seen as a greater mystery. But if you remember Annie's character growth through her experiences in the Forest, there's little doubt that there are plenty of good "people" living there.
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gary
Full Member
Posts: 121
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Post by gary on Sept 14, 2012 10:39:41 GMT
There have been hints of sinister workings still going on within the Court. There has been speculation that Zimmy may be a failed experiment, for example. And it's definate and certain that they treat sapient, feeling robots as mere tools with no concern for their life and wellbeing. The Forest has been seen as a greater mystery. But if you remember Annie's character growth through her experiences in the Forest, there's little doubt that there are plenty of good "people" living there. There's little doubts that there's people in the forest who Annie likes. That's not the same thing. And it doesn't compare to actually knowing numerous pleasant people who work and live in the forest, the way we do for the court. And as for Zimmy being a failed court experiment, well that's just speculation, it might be true but there's nothing in the actual comic yet to confirm it. The point I'm making isn't so much that the forest is evil and the court is good because I agree with you that isn't true but that I think what we've seen of the two sides is biased strongly in the court's favour and yet there's a significant ammount of the fan base who think otherwise. It confuses me.
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Post by Goatmon on Sept 14, 2012 11:22:26 GMT
"Remember, Coyote ain't your bro". Something along those lines. But I wonder why people immediately think it's an act of evil. Ys goes berserk, then Coyote deletes his memory about the case. Undoing it. Maybe that's what keeps Ys (relatively) sane? Ys clearly doesn't like it, but come and think of it, medical interventions are rarely pleasant for the patient. Uh This is clearly the REASON for him being insane. And even if it's not (and I'm 100% positive it is), You can't expect someone to recognize their errors and learn from their mistakes if you deny them from remembering them. Discipline and self control are established by recollecting past errors and understanding where we have gone wrong before. This helps us remember where our way of behaving and/or thinking is flawed. Take away memories of our mistakes, and there is no way to learn from them, or to avoid repeating them. Coyote is in no way doing Ysengrin any favors.
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Post by Stately Buff-Cookie on Sept 14, 2012 11:39:16 GMT
Let's cut the who is good and who isn't debate short. Neither side is all good. Neither is all bad. Both have bad beings that can do very bad things if they decided to do so with a questionable number of individuals that could do anything about it. Pick your poison. This isn't a story book. This is real LIFE. Nothing is ever fully go- Oh, wait, this is a story. Nevermind.
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Post by tal9922 on Sept 14, 2012 11:41:10 GMT
I wonder what the other memories contain... and what will happen if/when Ysengrin gets a hold of all of them
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Post by Stately Buff-Cookie on Sept 14, 2012 11:51:20 GMT
He will realize what he's known all along.
He's a giant mecha designed to destroy Coyote once and for all.
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Post by fillerb on Sept 14, 2012 12:33:40 GMT
Fun thought. How do we know that Ysengrin's memories where the only ones that Coyote stole and ate?
We don't know all the things that happened during Annie's summer vacation in the Forest.
Does she?
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Post by Eversist on Sept 14, 2012 13:17:09 GMT
So the stars that Coyote showed Annie look about the same as Ys memories... Not sure if that was on purpose or what to think about that. Stars can't be Coyote's collection of captive memories... Or maybe only some of them are. Maybe he's still placing stars.
Edit: Grammar.
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Post by hargharg on Sept 14, 2012 13:22:46 GMT
How so? The court is represented by Jones, Annie, Kat, the Donlans, Eglamore, Robot, Jack, Zimmy, Gamma, Parley, Smitty and around about 30 sympathetic likeable characters. They don't represent the Court. They are subjects, students, employees and in Jones's case, completely independent. The Court itself is represented by ominous, barely seen principal, agents and directors, and what most people think when they think of the Court leadership is the original founders who murdered Jeanne and generally acted like huge jerks. I don't think that the Court is evil, but I do think that both it and the Forest have plenty of good and bad going for them. My thoughts exactly. Wild spec: Coyote isn't Coyote, but an impostor!
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Bobbey
Junior Member
Jazz Musician
Posts: 81
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Post by Bobbey on Sept 14, 2012 13:24:09 GMT
^I came here to say exactly this. Coyote was already somewhat disturbing before we knew he could take Y's memories away, but the thought that he could actually take other people's or creature's memories away is even more disturbing. Or maybe he can only take memories away from those he's given power to in the past (which makes me worried about Rey a bit). This is mostly speculation, though.
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Post by darlos9d on Sept 14, 2012 13:38:12 GMT
Hey, remember last thread when I said that a scene like that tends to be followed with the badguy killing the other guy?
This is worse.
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Post by snarkwithasmile on Sept 14, 2012 13:39:42 GMT
So the stars in the sky might be people's lost thoughts/memories? Hm.
Poor, poor Ysengrim. I thought the page where Coyote was all "Let's see if you are so eager to ride on his back and tie up your hair after this day" and then chuckled to himself was foreboding.
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Post by Angry Robot on Sept 14, 2012 13:52:59 GMT
So the stars that Coyote showed Annie look about the same as Ys memories... [sigh] In the time it took me to register an account to point this out - you'd already pointed it out! In panel 5 here www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=1076, Coyote makes a big deal of Annie asking Jones about those things that he calls stars, but which look very much like Ysengrin's extracted memories. This seems...significant.
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Post by legion on Sept 14, 2012 13:54:00 GMT
No means no, Coyote :<
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Post by Serenissima on Sept 14, 2012 13:54:13 GMT
Welcome to the world, Coyote As People's Most Hated Character! Born 14 September 2012. You can join Diego and Sir Young up there. What about Annie's dad? I don't hate him (yet, we don't know enough about him), but there's certainly a very vocal faction of people who do. But, yes. Not much I can otherwise add to the thread which hasn't been said already. Coyote is creepier and nastier than ever, now.
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Post by hargharg on Sept 14, 2012 14:00:02 GMT
Are people remembering only now that the Forest isn't and was never a petting zoo? It's all fun and games 'til someone is on fire (or in this case has his memories taken)? Readers needed these shocking events just as much as Annie it seems...
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quoodle
Full Member
Just a man on a planet
Posts: 168
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Post by quoodle on Sept 14, 2012 14:02:28 GMT
"But I wonder why people immediately think it's an act of evil. Ys goes berserk, then Coyote deletes his memory about the case. Undoing it. Maybe that's what keeps Ys (relatively) sane? Ys clearly doesn't like it, but come and think of it, medical interventions are rarely pleasant for the patient. My thoughts exactly - what's the end result? Y has no more animus (no pun intended) against Annie. The methods are evil and creepy (you can tell that's the intent by the artwork) but the result is undeniable. Kind of cold and clinical, like the court maybe. As to whether this causes his insanity or not - I think I need to go back and see what memories we have of Y before we first met him. Is there a history there?
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Post by Goatmon on Sept 14, 2012 14:09:39 GMT
"But I wonder why people immediately think it's an act of evil. Ys goes berserk, then Coyote deletes his memory about the case. Undoing it. Maybe that's what keeps Ys (relatively) sane? Ys clearly doesn't like it, but come and think of it, medical interventions are rarely pleasant for the patient. My thoughts exactly - what's the end result? Y has no more animus (no pun intended) against Annie. The methods are evil and creepy (you can tell that's the intent by the artwork) but the result is undeniable. Kind of cold and clinical, like the court maybe. As to whether this causes his insanity or not - I think I need to go back and see what memories we have of Y before we first met him. Is there a history there? Does is really take a stretch of the imagination to fathom how plucking thoughts and memories out of someone's head against their will might cause them to become unstable? And increasingly so, if it continues long enough? Seems like a very straightforward consequence to me.
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Post by schayde1 on Sept 14, 2012 14:15:51 GMT
First time here but this page made me finally want to say something, I have always liked Ysengrin, he has a line of strength to him I have always admired, this one page, just makes me so sad for him like when I read the page about his distortion of what his true body should be, it makes me sad as it explains why he is so unstable, coyote has to keep those around him just as unstable as he is I think to keep himself amused as well as feeling superior to them. Poor Ysengrin.
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Post by Eversist on Sept 14, 2012 14:22:38 GMT
So the stars that Coyote showed Annie look about the same as Ys memories... [sigh] In the time it took me to register an account to point this out - you'd already pointed it out! In panel 5 here www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=1076, Coyote makes a big deal of Annie asking Jones about those things that he calls stars, but which look very much like Ysengrin's extracted memories. This seems...significant. Sorry about the ninja post. Certainly. But I think not all of them can be his collection of memories... after all, in that story told many chapters ago, the "powers that be" (other than he) gave him permission to place the stars. So either they're not all from his collection, or not all stars are memories. ... If this ends up being the case. Edit: Too bad it's not nighttime; Tom could have done a starry background in the next panel, back at the court.
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Post by fronzel on Sept 14, 2012 14:28:57 GMT
The idea that somehow the previous thousand odd pages painted the court as evil and the forest as good and this is just rebalancing the scales seems utterly bizarre to me. It's the forest who have from pretty much day one been written as the darker shade of gray. If it has good going for it, we haven't really seen it. For some reason there are a fair number of people on the forum who like to do this series a disservice and think of it as a shallow "technology bad, nature good" fable.
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Post by darlos9d on Sept 14, 2012 14:45:42 GMT
The idea that somehow the previous thousand odd pages painted the court as evil and the forest as good and this is just rebalancing the scales seems utterly bizarre to me. It's the forest who have from pretty much day one been written as the darker shade of gray. If it has good going for it, we haven't really seen it. For some reason there are a fair number of people on the forum who like to do this series a disservice and think of it as a shallow "technology bad, nature good" fable. Yeeeaaah... that thinking upsets me. On multiple levels. Life is so much more complicated than that.
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unrequited
Junior Member
Tormentor of the Heart, close friend of the Spleen
Posts: 74
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Post by unrequited on Sept 14, 2012 14:49:49 GMT
Just goes to show that neither side is innocent, and both has its good and bad characters.
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Post by aaroncampbell on Sept 14, 2012 14:52:04 GMT
Words...fail me. I wish that somehow, some way, a teleport could be opened on today's scene to the last two panels of this page. Even against two puny mortal girls, I think Coyote would find his hands full for a moment, and Ysengrin would have a few more friends! ;D
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Post by undyingshadow on Sept 14, 2012 15:06:58 GMT
I like this, in two pages, we're reminded that this isn't a game, that it's not a silly contest between the stodgy court and the whimsical forest. There are serious forces at work, and Annie will be caught in the middle.
It kinda feels like (and I use this because it's a shining example of an abrupt shift, not because I'm arguing it's good writing) the end of the 4th Harry Potter book, where Cedric is killed and the entire tone changes.
Annie is not a child anymore, the forest is not a playground, and coyote is evil.
S!@# just got real...
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