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Post by asianborat on Aug 17, 2012 7:30:19 GMT
Don't worry, I"m here for you! edit: Panel 3 is adorable.
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Post by Rex on Aug 17, 2012 7:33:25 GMT
Aww, as expected Ysengrin has a really hard time dealing with this. This is scene is very sweet.
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Post by Belrisa on Aug 17, 2012 8:15:48 GMT
She looks so small! I like the use of perspective, especially when he is picking her up.
I wonder what Annie will say. What would you guys say?
I can understand the fear/horror that Ys must be experiencing. It's not just that he finds humans superior. It is also the fact that his experience of being sentient is dependent upon somebody else. It reminds me of Flowers for Algernon in a way. It's hard to imagine losing your intelligence.
I wonder. If people stopped believing in fire elementals, would Annie become fully human? Maybe Anthony was trying to save surma by disbelieving as hard as he could. (Obviously there are huge holes in that plan.)
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Post by Pixievolt No. 1 on Aug 17, 2012 8:43:48 GMT
Here's something I found amusing: Ysengrin would not be saying those very words were it not for Tom Siddell.
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Post by SpitefulFox on Aug 17, 2012 9:39:05 GMT
Here's something I found amusing: Ysengrin would not be saying those very words were it not for Tom Siddell. You just blew my mind.
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Post by arf on Aug 17, 2012 10:49:26 GMT
We could swap it around and wonder if people would be sentient if it weren't for animals, like hungry coyotes, to worry about.
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Post by grinningcat on Aug 17, 2012 10:55:16 GMT
I'm inclined to think that, no, disbelieving as had as he can won't remove any form of etheric being already in existence. Let me explain in something like an algorithm: Humans believe in (Non existent) etheric creatures> | Humans die> | Humans' dying thoughts create etheric creatures> | Etheric creatures exist V | - | ^Humans believe in etheric creatures | < | <Etheric creatures' existence fuel human belief |
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Post by steelpanther on Aug 17, 2012 11:54:53 GMT
I wonder. If people stopped believing in fire elementals, would Annie become fully human? Maybe Anthony was trying to save surma by disbelieving as hard as he could. (Obviously there are huge holes in that plan.) This seems like a good idea, especially when Anthony would not be at his logical best. I also wonder if this means Ys is taking Coyote's gift for granted. Last time he went without his wood-suit, he could barely drink water, much less bend trees or crush his prey. EDIT: Just noticed in the 4th panel, those tree branches are spontaneously grown, then disappear. That's pretty fancy, Ys.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 17, 2012 12:59:14 GMT
I think that if Coyote isn't proposing a continuum between material and etherical, with reality as as humans perceive it an "overlay" on existing things material and etherial flows, then Antimony and her ancestors would be impossible. They couldn't be mostly human but they could possibly be humans with strata of beliefs building them up into something else, with their own rules. And that makes me wonder if Antimony's line began with a female human parent instead of a female fire elemental.
Hmm... I am still waiting to see if the other non-human intelligent mortals are "figments" or not... may sound minor but has profound implications for this theory of how the GC universe operates...
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Post by aaroncampbell on Aug 17, 2012 13:00:56 GMT
She looks so small! I like the use of perspective, especially when he is picking her up. I wonder what Annie will say. What would you guys say? I can understand the fear/horror that Ys must be experiencing. It's not just that he finds humans superior. It is also the fact that his experience of being sentient is dependent upon somebody else. It reminds me of Flowers for Algernon in a way. It's hard to imagine losing your intelligence. That's a great connection, belrisa. Flowers for Algernon was one of my favorite stories when I was younger. It's an interesting, if disturbingly uncomfortable and very sad one. I think maybe Annie is going to somehow show Ys what he looks like etherically. Somehow unite the 3 Ysengrins that Coyote talked about into a unified whole, healing him in the process. That would make me very happy.
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Post by aaroncampbell on Aug 17, 2012 13:01:45 GMT
I'm inclined to think that, no, disbelieving as had as he can won't remove any form of etheric being already in existence. Let me explain in something like an algorithm: Humans believe in (Non existent) etheric creatures> | Humans die> | Humans' dying thoughts create etheric creatures> | Etheric creatures exist V | - | ^Humans believe in etheric creatures | < | <Etheric creatures' existence fuel human belief |
Awesome flowchart! This is one of the theories I was considering as well. Not sure I subscribe to it, but you present the idea very well. :-)
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Post by blahzor on Aug 17, 2012 13:21:26 GMT
I think that if Coyote isn't proposing a continuum between material and etherical, with reality as as humans perceive it an "overlay" on existing things material and etherial flows, then Antimony and her ancestors would be impossible. They couldn't be mostly human but they could possibly be humans with strata of beliefs building them up into something else, with their own rules. And that makes me wonder if Antimony's line began with a female human parent instead of a female fire elemental. Hmm... I am still waiting to see if the other non-human intelligent mortals are "figments" or not... may sound minor but has profound implications for this theory of how the GC universe operates... a tribe of fire eaters/walkers? Y's is strong by default, but his refusal to believe in the power he's "given" from humans makes him weak. Assuming Coyote's words are 100% factual rather then truthful
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Post by chendzeea on Aug 17, 2012 13:25:47 GMT
O.o wow Ysengrin is tall. O.o All of this really does make sense. It falls into the circle of life albeit on a grander scale in a sense. It also reminds me of the classic. "If a tree falls in the woods, and no is there to hear, does it make a sound." It really makes sense. Literature past and present is full of, if people stop believing, then gods die. That in and alone makes the court and KAT (I love Kat though) exceptionally dangerous. Because with the scientific methods to explain everything away. The mystery that begets etheric creatures and spirits ceases to be.
I hate to use cheesy movies for examples but.
Freddy Krueger in the more recent movies, losses his power because people stop believing in him.
The Olympian gods, also meet there fate this in numerous stories.
This also explains why some Sci Fi is struggling so much and has lost a lot of it's wonder. There is a lot of Sci Fi that people don't risk doing anymore because it's viewed as unrealistic. It flies into the face of what we now know.
Fantasy endures because it's usually based on magic. Which is something that as far as we know has never existed, so you're mind "Imagination" accepts it as nutty as you want it to be.
But even historical fantasy is becoming bogged down in gritty realism. The smarter we become the more of our innocence we loose, the less imagination we have. Not saying we all need be fools, but people need to learn to accept the whimsical and let their imagination grow.
Back to Kat. I do think Kat is becoming a strange etheric robot etheric being/god, because the robots are worshiping her and giving her Etheric power because of it.
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Post by OrzBrain on Aug 17, 2012 13:51:58 GMT
In my opinion, one of the the best and most intelligent treatments of the effect of belief on Gods and magic was the 1998 Merlin film with Sam Neil. Besides the whole "Gods die without belief" thing, it had some very interesting ideas about how the basic nature of supernatural things involuntarily change as the kind of the belief in them changes with the coming of Christianity.
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eyefish
New Member
whimsical Observant
Posts: 5
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Post by eyefish on Aug 17, 2012 13:59:56 GMT
I wish I could contribute something intelligent, but there's one question that's keeping me from it: Do they need the human's believe to sustain them and their powers, or do they not?
Because if they don't, then I'd say, "What does it matter that you were born of this, when you have become so much greater", and that one doesn't need/shouldn't be controlled by his origins. (What does it matter that your parents were criminals if you're the prime example of a good cop?)
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Post by darlos9d on Aug 17, 2012 14:23:46 GMT
I wish I could contribute something intelligent, but there's one question that's keeping me from it: Do they need the human's believe to sustain them and their powers, or do they not? Because if they don't, then I'd say, "What does it matter that you were born of this, when you have become so much greater", and that one doesn't need/shouldn't be controlled by his origins. (What does it matter that your parents were criminals if you're the prime example of a good cop?) That's a good question. Though I'm going to have to assume by "rule of drama" that the former is true, and Ys, Coyote, and many other creatures could either disappear from existence or turn into dumb rocks and animals if humans decide that those entities don't exist. Assuming Coyote is right, of course. For some reason I don't feel like that's necessarily a given.
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Post by q3 on Aug 17, 2012 14:27:12 GMT
The endearing friendship between a girl made of fire and a wolf made of wood. Hmm, now that I put it that way it's not likely to end well, is it?
Alternatively:
"Ysengrin. Believe in yourself. Not in the you who believes in me. Not the me who believes in you. Believe in the you who believes in yourself."
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 17, 2012 14:39:14 GMT
a tribe of fire eaters/walkers? Not necessarily... I remember one fable where a woman birthed a fire-child because a bit of hot ash fell into her lap as she sat by a fire. In the GC universe it might be possible that plus her sincere belief might be enough, though it would be easier if she was already normally pregnant but very early along, and then the expectations regarding the baby caused the daughter to be etherically enabled, then myths piled up on her and her line over time. And that does bring up another complicating factor, the actual origin of Antimony's line might be obscured by it changing in response to beliefs about how it started. Do they need the human's believe to sustain them and their powers, or do they not? If my overlay theory is correct then there are some who do need belief and some who don't. The guides might expire if nobody believes in them but their persona are built on a natural flow of ether so there will always be SOMETHING there. The Trickster and other archetypes are probably permanent either because the human mind is hardwired with a tendency to believe in such stories, or because the tides of ether they occupy are permanent, or both. Mort on the other hand might be only a wave in the etherial sea, if he loses his agency for some reason he will probably cease to exist. Or die for keeps this time. But you have a point about the meaninglessness of such a theory in some aspects... The core of being for Ys might be a mere wolf, but that wolf is like the grain of sand that a pearl formed around. It might be more useful to say that the pearl is as real as the grain of sand. But because Coyote likes subtlety, as it's useful for being tricky, the better you understand reality the more you can screw with others.
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Post by FlyingMug on Aug 17, 2012 15:36:07 GMT
The endearing friendship between a girl made of fire and a wolf made of wood. Hmm, now that I put it that way it's not likely to end well, is it? Alternatively: "Ysengrin. Believe in yourself. Not in the you who believes in me. Not the me who believes in you. Believe in the you who believes in yourself." They can go dancing. Burn baby burn! Disco inferno! There must be something to limit all this belief bollocks or you wouldn't be able to throw a rock without hitting a creepy demigod created by a suicide cult. Also how would the scientific method even work? Like the Higgs boson, how would anyone know they didn't just create it by believing they'd find it.
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solus
New Member
Posts: 7
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Post by solus on Aug 17, 2012 16:53:07 GMT
Has anyone else noticed that Annie is quicker to touch Ys than anyone else? His hand, his face, his fur...Not even Reynard gets that kind of attention. I am not going to presume on what that means, but I imagine Annie's feelings for Ys are more complicated than just friendship.
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Post by legion on Aug 17, 2012 16:58:06 GMT
Annie will again raise her tree climbling skill level after this chapter.
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Post by foxurus on Aug 17, 2012 17:16:31 GMT
*gasp* I called it~ ...It was probably pretty obvious but still. I'm happy. "The shape of a woman. A spark of inspiration!" gave me a thought. Annie is descended from a fire spirit, right? What if fire spirits don't exist either -- that would mean Annie, in part, doesn't exist!
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gary
Full Member
Posts: 121
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Post by gary on Aug 17, 2012 17:19:08 GMT
Has anyone else noticed that Annie is quicker to touch Ys than anyone else? His hand, his face, his fur...Not even Reynard gets that kind of attention. I am not going to presume on what that means, but I imagine Annie's feelings for Ys are more complicated than just friendship. I think she's kind of mentally adopted the canines as a sort of wacky subsitute family. She seems to treat Renard and Coyote as annoying but beloved brothers half the time. And Ysengrin is probably the person she's come closest to treating as a paternal figure since Anthony left.
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Post by GK Sierra on Aug 17, 2012 17:26:33 GMT
Ysrengrin doesn't quite understand how much stock humans put in stories. If you tell a human his ancestors were "just" legends, he would probably be quite satisfied for the rest of the day. Maybe even the week, if it was a crappy one.
Edit: Yo Fish, please add a link to your OP
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Post by anonyfloyd on Aug 17, 2012 17:46:02 GMT
Here's something I found amusing: Ysengrin would not be saying those very words were it not for Tom Siddell. I feel a very meta-moment is possible here: Tom just gave himself the go-ahead run on a very cheesy interpretation that this is all happening in his head. NOT THAT HE WOULD...but that is my hem-haw just because i love considering all possible points of the compass. One thing that this situation brings up is how much belief affects the etheric in anything in this story. Remember any one with any "ability" not completely sustained by strict techno science is now "at risk" by being created (at least in part) by mere thought. (think about Eglamore and Thorn and their "Dragon Slayer" abilities, just how human Marcia really isn't, and how human Zimmy really is...trippy) Even then, the efforts of those who are building the tech are being slowly diminished in terms of what they are actually creating. Think of this, the thoughts of a dying man created (perhaps, only a beginning of) a more effectual being, than Diego the robot maker (who did his entire collection during the course of his entire life). Tom is making a real statement here, and I can't wait to see where he goes with this. Of course, once Tom does a reveal, he holds back on such pertinent or at least readily understood information for a few chapters. I love how he is actually using the process of his comic creation to keep our interest up and his information at bay. Excellent work, if i may say so. Sorry if this is TL:DR and not very quick on the eyes, but I've been meaning to post some of these posts for a while.
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Post by anonyfloyd on Aug 17, 2012 18:31:32 GMT
a tribe of fire eaters/walkers? "...the actual origin of Antimony's line might be obscured by it changing in response to beliefs about how it started...." An interesting notion. Do you believe perhaps coyote wants this? Do you believe he wants Annie or somebody else in court with a weaker mind to be perturbed and so affected by this information? It has been addressed on this very board that perhaps Kat is gaining something of an etheric being by the robot's belief (also in technical terms of story and theme, Kat being drawn into the forest would prove to be very compelling to the plot i can imagine). Maybe one of the other two mediums-in-waiting could be so affected (we already know coyote has a vested interest and is courting Annie fiercely, why not have the other mediums to throw advantage against the court?) Do they need the human's believe to sustain them and their powers, or do they not? "...Mort on the other hand might be only a wave in the etherial sea, if he loses his agency for some reason he will probably cease to exist. Or die for keeps this time...." Mortimer, is beginning to come under my suspicions because of this recent revelation. In terms of story, he is in one of the best positions for betrayal and sabotage (Think of how recently "the fool" character has been in use as the "perfect traitor," and how juicy it would be for Tom to spring a trap by using Coyote (of all people) to have infiltrated Gunnerkrieg and Annie's confidence by using Mort's body). Remember, he first "attacked" antimony because of his lonelyness. Intriguing concept, now that the etheric is now being completely translated into thought and memory. Strange, right? Muut has spoken for him, though they are simple acquaintances and not associates. And so little has been said about ghosts (remember, its Jeanne and Mort and no one else. Every other dead character has been thematically taken by a psychopomp). "...The core of being for Ys might be a mere wolf, but that wolf is like the grain of sand that a pearl formed around. It might be more useful to say that the pearl is as real as the grain of sand..." In fact, sand : pearl is an excellent example. What he is, is not what he was, and he could not even be, if it wasn't for what he's become. Remember, (is that my catch word? apologies...) he is extremely proud of what he is, but he shows no grace or care towards his wolf form at all. He has more concern for his elevated status of thought and power so as to be above all humans. Now, his greater self is because of humans... He has no recourse but to continue down this course of elevated being. How very sad ...and potentially very driving... >;D (edit: apologies friends while i try to learn to properly edit my quotes in my posts (hey, that sounds remarkably modern and seuss-like))
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Post by Per on Aug 17, 2012 19:20:30 GMT
There must be something to limit all this belief bollocks One pretty big limiting factor is that basically none of the speculation going on in the forum has any firm basis in the comic itself. We've had one largely symbolic and very sketchy exposé from someone who grins all the time.
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Post by TBeholder on Aug 17, 2012 19:36:25 GMT
I doubt Annie sees this as either worrysome or amusing. In fact, she may give 'Grin a little speech in his own style. I can understand the fear/horror that Ys must be experiencing. It's not just that he finds humans superior. It is also the fact that his experience of being sentient is dependent upon somebody else. Then again, how it's worse (or better) than being able to breathe only thanks to what's only barely above sheets of bubble-wrap with pigments inside? We could swap it around and wonder if people would be sentient if it weren't for animals, like hungry coyotes, to worry about. Or that. Because with the scientific methods to explain everything away. It's a common mistake, yes. Alternatively: "Ysengrin. Believe in yourself. Not in the you who believes in me. Not the me who believes in you. Believe in the you who believes in yourself." Haha, perfect. ;D
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Earin
Full Member
Posts: 115
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Post by Earin on Aug 17, 2012 19:36:53 GMT
"...Mort on the other hand might be only a wave in the etherial sea, if he loses his agency for some reason he will probably cease to exist. Or die for keeps this time...." Mortimer, is beginning to come under my suspicions because of this recent revelation. In terms of story, he is in one of the best positions for betrayal and sabotage (Think of how recently "the fool" character has been in use as the "perfect traitor," and how juicy it would be for Tom to spring a trap by using Coyote (of all people) to have infiltrated Gunnerkrieg and Annie's confidence by using Mort's body). Remember, he first "attacked" antimony because of his lonelyness. Intriguing concept, now that the etheric is now being completely translated into thought and memory. Strange, right? I note that by some interpretations of these new rules there's no reason why Mort should be the ghost of anyone in particular, or even be composed of human soul. After all, if people believe in ghosts, there will be ghosts, regardless of process.
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quoodle
Full Member
Just a man on a planet
Posts: 168
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Post by quoodle on Aug 17, 2012 20:30:15 GMT
So it's a slur against Annie's ancestors - can we infer that the fire elementals, as such, have died out?
As for the Coyote or Ys depending on humans to "exist" - are you talking about the "real" or physical world? There's another place of existence, the Ether. I think it's more than just a dumping ground for psychic energy - as the court seems to think it. Does it contain independent personalities? OR just the will and stories of those who've gone there?
Is the existence, in the physical world, the only existence Coyote is talking about? "strictly speaking", he's not lying. Just not telling the whole story.
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