galileo
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there are plenty of spiders!
Posts: 47
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Post by galileo on Aug 8, 2012 15:38:38 GMT
can go like this, since the ether is like the "ocean" and everyone gets returned to it. It's "impossible" to find someone returned to it due to how large and possibly blending everything is in it. Anthony could be trying to use Annie as a trace to find Surma in that giant ocean of ether I always forget to factor in hypotheses about Anthony, since he's such a fringe character (a little less, after that touching chapter with Annie and Kat's dad) and out of sight, out of mind and all that. Interesting...his personality seems to fit for someone who has visions of becoming near-godlike through technology and intellect.
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Post by TBeholder on Aug 8, 2012 15:53:54 GMT
Mystery solved! and thinking about the events of the previous chapter, it's possible Anthony may have thought of that as well, possibly trying to use her as a bridge if the phoenix theory is correct. By carving the bridge out of ether with a stainless scalpel? ;D A magical universe setting which lacks a real afterlife is not something I think I've come across in fiction very often. It also means that the ultimate goal of every person with enough power (like Annie) in the Gunnerkrigg Court universe should be physical immortality... Why necessarily "physical"? Also, see Max Frei (on both accounts).
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Post by phyzome on Aug 8, 2012 15:54:21 GMT
Seems all right. I just wonder what Tom's comment is about. The guides? Or the humans being guided? I think he's referring to "[t]he boy and his family" from the previous page's comment...which in turn refers back to the fire-bug kid Annie was called to help yonks ago. Oh man, that does put a different spin on Tom's comment. What a brat. :-D
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Post by warrl on Aug 8, 2012 16:12:13 GMT
Assorted comments...
* When you look at religions as practiced, it is obvious that man creates gods in his own image. This is a comment on the nature of human religions, though, not necessarily on the true nature of any deity.
* Some religions teach that souls come from God and in the end will be reabsorbed into God, losing their separate identity.
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Post by bluevitriol on Aug 8, 2012 16:49:28 GMT
can go like this, since the ether is like the "ocean" and everyone gets returned to it. It's "impossible" to find someone returned to it due to how large and possibly blending everything is in it. Anthony could be trying to use Annie as a trace to find Surma in that giant ocean of ether I always forget to factor in hypotheses about Anthony, since he's such a fringe character (a little less, after that touching chapter with Annie and Kat's dad) and out of sight, out of mind and all that. Interesting...his personality seems to fit for someone who has visions of becoming near-godlike through technology and intellect. I agree with this, I believe Anthony is using the fire elemental as the common link in Surma's family line to find her before she 'Fades into the background." He isn't as cold and calculating as everyone thinks, thats just a means to an end, he is actually very very emotional and hides it well, much like his daughter. He seems to keep her at GKC to protect her while he is out searching for Surma, and if he DOES find her what then? Would he actually take away his daughters flame to bring Surma back? That would cause a huge commotion in the Ether I think. One where a certain mechanically inclined friend might help. Oh and on the subject of souls and the robots, a Golem is just a "robot" or doll animated by Soul material gathered in ritual from the Otzar (treasury, source of all life) beyond the Guf, this material is blank and while it is a soul it doesn't have a soul per-se, but it does allow it to be "animated" (much like the angels are). Going this route, it would seem that GKC has had someone able to tap into the ether and program its blank state, giving it a personality, a simulacrum of a soul. If that is the case then yes, the robots of GKC are living beings and COULD contribute to the ether when they are depleted... Unless their essence is captured and recycled manually, then that would be a HUGE blockade to the natural order of things (as described by Coyote), and would explain why siphoning ether from the water at the plant is so unnatural.. its like leeching the universe itself. Maybe GKC goal is to control the etheric medium and keep it from recycling back into the current Ether? Wouldn't that level of control eventual make those who control it Gods?
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Post by warrl on Aug 8, 2012 17:54:53 GMT
I believe Anthony is using the fire elemental as the common link in Surma's family line to find her before she 'Fades into the background." He isn't as cold and calculating as everyone thinks, thats just a means to an end, he is actually very very emotional and hides it well, much like his daughter. He seems to keep her at GKC to protect her while he is out searching for Surma, and if he DOES find her what then? Would he actually take away his daughters flame to bring Surma back? That would cause a huge commotion in the Ether I think. One where a certain mechanically inclined friend might help. Purely by coincidence, I'm currently reading a book where a man is planning to destroy his daughter in order to bring back his dead wife. He may be in for a spot of trouble, though, as his daughter was trained in magic by a chap named Robin Goodfellow...
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Post by Per on Aug 8, 2012 18:28:29 GMT
I think he's referring to "[t]he boy and his family" from the previous page's comment...which in turn refers back to the fire-bug kid Annie was called to help yonks ago. Oh man, that does put a different spin on Tom's comment. What a brat. :-D It's Surma.
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Post by GK Sierra on Aug 8, 2012 18:55:11 GMT
Assorted comments... * When you look at religions as practiced, it is obvious that man creates gods in his own image. This is a comment on the nature of human religions, though, not necessarily on the true nature of any deity. * Some religions teach that souls come from God and in the end will be reabsorbed into God, losing their separate identity. In the beginning there was darkness, and man was alone with the elements. On the first day, man made God in his own image. He imbued him with all things that set mankind apart: his mercy, his compassion, his justice, but also his fear, his rage, and his hate. At last man had a companion that would never abandon him, even in the darkest hour. On the second day, man gave God control of all the forces of nature, the tides, the winds, the seasons and the planets. At last there was someone to thank for the bounty of the field's harvest, and someone to curse when the fields fell fallow. On the third day, man gave God dominion over his politic. At last there was a leader who could not be killed, who would lead them in peace and in war without uttering a single word. On the fourth day, man gave God his infallibility, the thing man himself so desired. At last there was a guide to arbitrate squabbles whose judgement none could question, above doubt or rejoinder. On the fifth day, man gave God ultimate say over his morality. At last there was a simple cornerstone of justice: those that fought for god were just, those that did not, were not. On the sixth day man gave God the last and greatest gift: final control of his destiny. At last there was a garden of paradise for those deemed just, and a pit of eternal suffering for the unworthy and the unwanted. On the seventh day man awoke from his rest to find chaos. Nation had turned on nation, brother had turned on brother. The planet was withering, wars were raging, children were starving, and God in all his power was nowhere to be found.
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Post by joebean on Aug 8, 2012 21:57:32 GMT
Just a thought on Tom's comment, i think it might refer to when coyote says humans are the most powerful creatures in the world-"what's left of them anyways." As in humans are the most powerful but only on their deathbed, they become relevant by dying. Kind of a catch 22.
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Post by Rex on Aug 8, 2012 23:43:42 GMT
Nah, I think he's referring to Surma and how Annie took Surma's life/fire. So much so that apparently there wasn't much of Surma left to take to the Ether.
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Post by aaroncampbell on Aug 9, 2012 0:01:40 GMT
The last three panels have me confused.
Coyote, conglomeration of human interpretations/(mis)conceptions/explanations for actions in the natural world, heals Ysengrin (albeit in an imperfect, shaky way) by giving him an artificial body made of elements of the natural world (that is, trees.) But Ysengrin was somehow wounded (probably by humans, or so it would seem; we don't actually know the backstory.)
Why would Coyote do that? What does he get out of it? Why does Ysengrin stay around, and what does he get out of it? (We know that Coyote loses the gifts he bestows, so the tree-body belongs to Ysengrin alone now; it's not on loan as it were.)
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Post by Per on Aug 9, 2012 0:22:29 GMT
Coyote, conglomeration of human interpretations/(mis)conceptions/explanations for actions in the natural world, heals Ysengrin (albeit in an imperfect, shaky way) by giving him an artificial body made of elements of the natural world (that is, trees.) But Ysengrin was somehow wounded (probably by humans, or so it would seem; we don't actually know the backstory.) I think the common assumption is that Ysengrin has atrophied from being in the artificial body, but claims the power it gives him is worth it (while at the same time being self-conscious about his real body).
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Post by Mezzaphor on Aug 9, 2012 0:44:14 GMT
Is the total quantity of ether in the universe constant? Since human minds emerge from the ether at birth and fade back into the ether at death, can the ether be depleted if the human population grows large enough? Do creatures of the ether, like Coyote, grow weaker as humans become more numerous?
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Earin
Full Member
Posts: 115
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Post by Earin on Aug 9, 2012 1:00:15 GMT
Since human minds emerge from the ether at birth and fade back into the ether at death, While a logical assumption, I don't think that former point has been explicitly stated. (You could infer it from "But in the end, everyone is brought back into the ether".) For example, it could instead be that human thought-computation generates the etheric potential itself, which is then released into the ether pool at death, which would mean that it isn't necessary to have a pool to draw from to make a whole new person.
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Post by Dvandaemon on Aug 9, 2012 3:52:13 GMT
Is the total quantity of ether in the universe constant? Since human minds emerge from the ether at birth and fade back into the ether at death, can the ether be depleted if the human population grows large enough? Do creatures of the ether, like Coyote, grow weaker as humans become more numerous? No, see the ether in the universe is transfinite. This is to say that like the memory on your computer it is used up over time by human processors until eventually more RAM has to be downloaded by human reproduction. After each cycle there is less total sum ether but it is negligible and will last at least until the end of the universe; ether having entropy of it's own. This is also why etheric beings are so long lived, essentially being subroutines of ether, they last an indefinite amount of time as long as they are repetively run. The downside being they take a considerable amount of ether to be run, thus making it unusable for others. Maybe this is Zimmy's deal, she accrues a number of junk files from the surrounding ether that take up so much processes they run her hardware hot. The Gamma patch has to alleviate it by drawing it away like a heat sink, as mentioned in a previous chapter. (: p could you tell which parts are jokes, which parts are speculation, and which are actually true?) On a more serious note, this makes me rethink every example of etheric power in the story. 1) What does this say about the Nobody's in Zimmingham? 2) Could somebody confirm my memory which says that Coyote demonstrated over half of his power after telling them?
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Post by karakai on Aug 9, 2012 3:55:00 GMT
On the seventh day man awoke from his rest to find chaos. Nation had turned on nation, brother had turned on brother. The planet was withering, wars were raging, children were starving, and God in all his power was nowhere to be found. On the eighth day, Coyote could be found with a large bowl of pop corn, laughing at the wondrous soap opera before him.
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galileo
New Member
there are plenty of spiders!
Posts: 47
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Post by galileo on Aug 9, 2012 3:56:38 GMT
Nah, I think he's referring to Surma and how Annie took Surma's life/fire. So much so that apparently there wasn't much of Surma left to take to the Ether. Well...the only flaw in this, is that Tom uses the plural. "Whatever's left of them..." implies multiples...not a single person. That's why I tend to believe it's a reference to humans in general. I think that the panel in which we see Annie guiding Surma is a flash back ANNIE is having, separate of Coyote. As in, his words make her think of this painful moment and reflect on her mother returning to the ether. You get? Also, Colin that's a tragic and beautiful twist to the 7 day myth. Also also: Is the total quantity of ether in the universe constant? Since human minds emerge from the ether at birth and fade back into the ether at death, can the ether be depleted if the human population grows large enough? Do creatures of the ether, like Coyote, grow weaker as humans become more numerous? Maybe we are contributing to the ether constantly while alive, and then when we die, our etheric energies are returned in whole, a surge of energy, if you will, after a consistent trickle through the years. Or maybe it's like a circuit that is active, but the light doesn't turn on until the switch is flicked, thus death, completing our potential/kinetic energy...thingy. Hahaha, a little bit of middle school science class tried to come through there.
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Post by biggerj on Aug 9, 2012 5:31:41 GMT
I want to see an edit of this page with the dialogue in the last row of panels edited, and a smug Terry Pratchett (who was right all along) added to the second-last panel.
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Post by GK Sierra on Aug 9, 2012 5:58:29 GMT
On the seventh day man awoke from his rest to find chaos. Nation had turned on nation, brother had turned on brother. The planet was withering, wars were raging, children were starving, and God in all his power was nowhere to be found. On the eighth day, Coyote could be found with a large bowl of pop corn, laughing at the wondrous soap opera before him. ;D Yes, and on the eighth day Coyote rested in his favorite easy chair, and saw that it was good. However the force of his laughter made the seat recline too far and he tumbled out. He was so embarrassed that he erased the whole day so no one would remember it ever happened. AND NOW YOU KNOW WHY WEEKS ARE SEVEN DAYS AND NOT EIGHT.
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Rea
Junior Member
Posts: 53
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Post by Rea on Aug 9, 2012 13:48:15 GMT
I wondered why, if Ysengrin dislikes humans so much, he chose to take the shape of one. Then I remembered that humans aren't the only ones with that shape anyway.
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galileo
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there are plenty of spiders!
Posts: 47
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Post by galileo on Aug 9, 2012 13:50:16 GMT
Yeah, this is true, but I wondered the same thing! It reminds me a lot of one of the captains in Bleach. At the same time, that might be another reason why he's pissed off all the time!
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Post by karakai on Aug 9, 2012 16:03:32 GMT
On the eighth day, Coyote could be found with a large bowl of pop corn, laughing at the wondrous soap opera before him. ;D Yes, and on the eighth day Coyote rested in his favorite easy chair, and saw that it was good. However the force of his laughter made the seat recline too far and he tumbled out. He was so embarrassed that he erased the whole day so no one would remember it ever happened. AND NOW YOU KNOW WHY WEEKS ARE SEVEN DAYS AND NOT EIGHT. And try as he might, Coyote could not wipe this memory from The Beatles. That's the real reason they sang that song!! By the by, that was quite the beautiful take on the first seven days :] I plan on printing that out and hanging it on my wall
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Post by Eversist on Aug 10, 2012 3:44:17 GMT
Nah, I think he's referring to Surma and how Annie took Surma's life/fire. So much so that apparently there wasn't much of Surma left to take to the Ether. Well...the only flaw in this, is that Tom uses the plural. "Whatever's left of them..." implies multiples...not a single person. That's why I tend to believe it's a reference to humans in general. I think that the panel in which we see Annie guiding Surma is a flash back ANNIE is having, separate of Coyote. As in, his words make her think of this painful moment and reflect on her mother returning to the ether. I still believe in this particular case, Tom is making reference to Surma, separate of what Coyote is saying. Saying "Or what was left of HER, anyway." wouldn't make sense grammatically within context, and would be entirely too hamfisted for someone like Tom. He is more than likely making reference to Annie taking Surma's life-force as she grew, having little to none left when she passed. Yes, obviously the image of Surma is taking place internally, and that is what Tom is referring to. And he doesn't need to spell it out for us, seeing as it's just aside commentary. People will obviously continue to debate this and interpret the statement differently, as is the nature of this comic and forum, but I thought it was pretty obvious. The ability of this forum to take something relatively straight forward and twist it into something completely different continues to impress me.
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galileo
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there are plenty of spiders!
Posts: 47
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Post by galileo on Aug 10, 2012 4:12:07 GMT
People will obviously continue to debate this and interpret the statement differently, as is the nature of this comic and forum, but I thought it was pretty obvious. The ability of this forum to take something relatively straight forward and twist it into something completely different continues to impress me. Well, we will agree to disagree, as your straight forward seems twisted and completely different to me. No worries, different theories are what makes the world go around!
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Post by Eversist on Aug 10, 2012 4:15:56 GMT
Guess the only way to know for certain is to bug Tom on his FormSpring, hah.
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galileo
New Member
there are plenty of spiders!
Posts: 47
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Post by galileo on Aug 10, 2012 4:19:22 GMT
Well, feel free! I'm definitely not a sore loser, so if you're right, let me know! (Also, I like your icon haha)
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Post by TBeholder on Aug 10, 2012 10:17:00 GMT
Yeah, this is true, but I wondered the same thing! It reminds me a lot of one of the captains in Bleach. At the same time, that might be another reason why he's pissed off all the time! Even simpler: it continues the comment on the previous page.
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Post by jzvisuals on Aug 14, 2012 23:35:14 GMT
Reading back over the last few weeks of comics all at once and the ether sounds very similar to Transcendentalism (as it was explained to me).
Everything forms a river of collective matter and you can imagine life as part of that river being briefly scooped into a cup and held before being dumped back in when they die.
And in that analogy, when Coyote says he swims in the ether, it means he's never actually in a cup, he's free to grab whatever part and add it to himself and throw it away at will.
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Post by Eversist on Aug 22, 2012 1:24:18 GMT
Well, feel free! I'm definitely not a sore loser, so if you're right, let me know! (Also, I like your icon haha) Thanks! I love picking the funny, oversimplified faces Tom draws on Annie for avatars. <3 Tom's answer to the "Or what's left of them, anyway." debate: 4ms.me/O3IPIY
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Post by warrl on Aug 22, 2012 6:24:58 GMT
Well, feel free! I'm definitely not a sore loser, so if you're right, let me know! (Also, I like your icon haha) Thanks! I love picking the funny, oversimplified faces Tom draws on Annie for avatars. <3 Tom's answer to the "Or what's left of them, anyway." debate: 4ms.me/O3IPIYWow, a clear answer to a specific question! Somebody check if Tom's ill please?
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