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Post by Marnath on Jun 2, 2012 1:08:29 GMT
Anthony did not abandon his child. He arranged Annie to be raised in the best possible environment he could think of, under the protection of people he trusted the most, And then never made contact with her ever again until he needed something from her. My point stands.
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Post by Lightice on Jun 2, 2012 1:20:17 GMT
And then never made contact with her ever again until he needed something from her. My point stands. He didn't need anything from Annie, as far as we can tell. He needed something from the Court. He chose to speak to Annie. For now the only thing you can blame him for is cowardice, for not finding it in himself to face his daughter after a personal tragedy.
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Post by Bob, Squirrel King on Jun 2, 2012 1:28:34 GMT
Anthony did not abandon his child. He arranged Annie to be raised in the best possible environment he could think of, under the protection of people he trusted the most, allowing her to make friends with people of her own age for the first time in her life. He also didn't contact her in any way, shape, or form for roughly 2 years, without giving her any notice that he would be gone so long. I can understand him feeling that he would be a bad parent, but I can't seriously believe that he wouldn't have been able to at least write a short email to let her know that he still cared about her, or at least still thought about her. Just because he made sure she would be taken care of before he abandoned her doesn't mean he didn't still abandon her.
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Post by Lightice on Jun 2, 2012 1:38:56 GMT
Again, remember, this is the same guy who hopelessly freaks out over the possibility that a girl may like him. I wouldn't be surprised if he'd diagnose to an Asperger's syndrome, or something. He may seriously have been too paralyzed by Surma's death to do anything constructive in those two years, and been completely at loss of how to approach his daughter after this.
This is just speculation ofcourse, but so is assuming that he abandoned Annie for the sake of being a petty, evil bastard.
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Post by goldenknots on Jun 2, 2012 1:44:55 GMT
In a darkened version of the panel it looks like Zimmy's fist is going _through_ his head. Messy.
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Post by Eversist on Jun 2, 2012 2:15:29 GMT
goldenknotsI thought the same thing, haha. -- I know everyone always thinks Tom has something up his sleeve so they read into things that aren't necessarily there, but I really think this is Anthony Zimmy is hitting here, even if only an etherial version of him. Amazing visualization of Zimmy actually channeling Annie; wonder if Annie would still want to punch her father if Zimmy wasn't the proprietor of the situation. Edit: My turn to read too much into this: Does Anthony's arm seem a little sickly/old? Editedit: Perusing the comments: Lulz. Also, eight, count 'em eight "Pow, right in the kisser" jokes.
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ryos
Full Member
Posts: 175
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Post by ryos on Jun 2, 2012 4:58:26 GMT
Did Zimmy just etherically facepuch Anthony? That is too awesome for words.
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Post by negativeproximity on Jun 2, 2012 5:41:25 GMT
We can't know all the reasons tony hasn't been contacting annie. It could have to do with her safety, or his safety, or any of a bajillion reasons.
We do not have enough information at this time to tell anything. We do know that he cares, he's shown this because the one time he made any contact to anyone at all, he did so through her, when he could have easily done so through other means. This is what donnie was saying.
Which also leads me beleive there is more to his absence than mere neglect, or even fear.
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Post by GK Sierra on Jun 2, 2012 6:14:04 GMT
Interesting. I always assigned it to either cowardice or callousness. I never considered mild autism. But really, even if he is a little socially handicapped, it hardly excuses not taking advantage of his one opportunity to converse with his daughter. That's just some cold shit man, any which way you slice it.
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Post by TBeholder on Jun 2, 2012 6:45:34 GMT
but I don't know how Zimmy would make that mistake, if she could feel it was Annie's dad. And it's definitely a dude. She got back from Annie's side that Anthony is here, or she hoped he's here, or something. Then dived in and punched the first dude in sight right away. While there is a decent chance it's him... The only way she can be sure is if she get it in real time from merging with Annie, but that in itself, at least in short term, seems at least as likely to be confusing as helpful. I'm still of the opinion that the bones aren't actually "there," rather they're etherical manifestations of Annie's feelings. That's two chapters after this, you see. So if there's a good reason for doubts, it's rather from "the hint is too straightforward to not be fire-finned herring". I can remember at least one instance in which the characters were being a little out of character and then it turned out it wasn't real. I think. It kind of was. They just weren't themselves, but still. There weren't much hollow symbolism, but a lot of very direct symbolism. The only recent "not for real at all" was in Annie's dreams, and those were less than coherent in general. I can't seriously believe that he wouldn't have been able to at least write a short email to let her know that he still cared about her, or at least still thought about her. Why do you think it's occured to him, ever, to let anyone "know about" anything unless coordinating some action? Flashbacks aren't in favour of this idea, to say the least. I don't really see any personal connection that isn't effectively one-sided as long as the other side doesn't read his mind directly. And amazed as to how Surma made it. Assuming she didn't cheat and use magic as an icebreaker, that is. Amazing visualization of Zimmy actually channeling Annie; wonder if Annie would still want to punch her father if Zimmy wasn't the proprietor of the situation. I suspect, on some level she really did... but any poor soul who'd say this aloud would still be flung across the room with a throw and hot airburst. We can't know all the reasons tony hasn't been contacting annie. It could have to do with her safety, or his safety, or any of a bajillion reasons. Or he knows how frustrating he is for anyone who neither is a telepath nor loves puzzles, and simply thinks no one have to put up with this crap unless they actively chose to.
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psykeout
Junior Member
I will construct a robotic posting device...
Posts: 56
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Post by psykeout on Jun 2, 2012 11:46:59 GMT
it's hardly excuses not taking advantage of his one opportunity to converse with his daughter. That's just some cold shit man, any which way you slice it. It's pretty cold, but until he provides an explanation, you don't know HOW cold. Guys I'm not saying that Tony is a good guy or a bad guy I'm just saying that we have no idea what kind of guy he is until he at least SAYS something. Technically, for all we know, he might have talked to her during his message to Annie. (but I doubt that one too) [Only evil people abandon their children] It's a bit naive to assume that he didn't have a good reason to abandon her. I'm sure Annie will be upset when she learns the truth, but I have no doubt that he had some logical reason for doing so, and I'm sure that he never wanted to hurt Annie. It's sort of like putting a child up for adoption. Would you say that was wrong? What if the parent wanted the child to be raised by people who could raise her/him? If you can't provide for a child, then if you love them, the most sensible thing is to let them go. Completely alienating yourself from them afterwards is probably a bad move, but we can't pass a judgement on that until we know why he did it. People aren't bad because of what they do so much as how they react to different situations, if that makes sense.
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Kriselia
Junior Member
But she smells wonderful!
Posts: 87
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Post by Kriselia on Jun 2, 2012 17:07:47 GMT
The earlier image was still a bit blurry, so I messed around with the contrast and brightness rather than just darkening and there's a clear head outline visible. The face is turned to the side, with a visible nose and closed eyes, looks like there's short hair aswell. Still unreckognisable though. And there's a creepy splatter effect going on too (here's hoping it's just blood) Edit: After staring at it enough, it started looking like she knocked out his teeth...
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Post by negativeproximity on Jun 2, 2012 17:38:27 GMT
It also says a lot that even when Tony did make contact, he did so entirely in code form.
This says to me there is probably good reason for his absence. If there wasn't a need, why use a meticulous code?
This alludes to the fact that even making contact at all involved some level of risk. He proved he cared for his daughter by using such an opportunity to speak with her, even if but for a moment.
As to the picture... while there are some things that you wouldn't otherwise be able to see, I think the modifying actually does some distortion, and can't necessarily key in to any big ques of who it is.
I do note that the hair shape does not seem congruous with Anthony's last seen hair, and the build seems slighter than anthony's last seen build too. That, however, could simply be in contrast to Zimmy's size there.
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Post by Marnath on Jun 2, 2012 19:23:42 GMT
[Only evil people abandon their children] It's a bit naive to assume that he didn't have a good reason to abandon her. I'm sure Annie will be upset when she learns the truth, but I have no doubt that he had some logical reason for doing so, and I'm sure that he never wanted to hurt Annie. It's sort of like putting a child up for adoption. Would you say that was wrong? What if the parent wanted the child to be raised by people who could raise her/him? If you can't provide for a child, then if you love them, the most sensible thing is to let them go. Completely alienating yourself from them afterwards is probably a bad move, but we can't pass a judgement on that until we know why he did it. People aren't bad because of what they do so much as how they react to different situations, if that makes sense. Wow, nice strawman. There's absolutely no resemblance between this and adoption, and arguing that there is is disingenuous. Oh, and I'm not naively assuming he doesn't have a good reason for abandoning her, I'm saying that there's no good reason. It doesn't matter to me if he feels justified doing it for whatever reasons he has, I'm saying he's wrong. Frankly I find the fact that you'd equate abandonment and neglect to adoption offensive.
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Post by TBeholder on Jun 2, 2012 20:01:37 GMT
Did anyone else connect Anthony's "Little Grey Men" face (seriously, look at thjose eyes), strange attitude and the fact he's evidently not on Earth right now? It's a bit naive to assume that Yup. Join the "not arguing with a brick wall" club and win one free meditation today. The earlier image was still a bit blurry, so I messed around with the contrast and brightness rather than just darkening and there's a clear head outline visible. [...] And there's a creepy splatter effect going on too (here's hoping it's just blood) Two more generations of JPEG artifacts and we'll be able to see the interior of Enigmaron base there! It also says a lot that even when Tony did make contact, he did so entirely in code form. Well, yeah. Something is going on. This says to me there is probably good reason for his absence. If there wasn't a need, why use a meticulous code? For fun. But that's what Donald could do. Anthony so far didn't display sense of humor of this grade. Or any at all, really.
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Post by Bob, Squirrel King on Jun 2, 2012 20:14:00 GMT
It's a bit naive to assume that he didn't have a good reason to abandon her. I'm sure Annie will be upset when she learns the truth, but I have no doubt that he had some logical reason for doing so, and I'm sure that he never wanted to hurt Annie. It's sort of like putting a child up for adoption. Would you say that was wrong? What if the parent wanted the child to be raised by people who could raise her/him? If you can't provide for a child, then if you love them, the most sensible thing is to let them go. Completely alienating yourself from them afterwards is probably a bad move, but we can't pass a judgement on that until we know why he did it. People aren't bad because of what they do so much as how they react to different situations, if that makes sense. Wow, nice strawman. There's absolutely no resemblance between this and adoption, and arguing that there is is disingenuous. Oh, and I'm not naively assuming he doesn't have a good reason for abandoning her, I'm saying that there's no good reason. It doesn't matter to me if he feels justified doing it for whatever reasons he has, I'm saying he's wrong. Frankly I find the fact that you'd equate abandonment and neglect to adoption offensive. It's not like adoption if the child doesn't know they've been "adopted". And I can't think of any reason someone could even justify to themselves for not even sending a 5 word email or call. As we know from last chapter, if Anthony doesn't want to be traced (electronically, at least) he won't be.
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Post by Lightice on Jun 2, 2012 20:16:19 GMT
Frankly I find the fact that you'd equate abandonment and neglect to adoption offensive. Considering that Anthony went his way to ensure safe and pleasant environment for Annie to live in before his dissappearance, it's not all that far off comparison to make. In any case, please stop being pointlessly judgemental before we learn exactly what is the reason for his absence. Considering from the fact that he had to speak in code simply to get some basic supplies found in any general hospital, there seems to be far more important matters at play than apathy or negligence.
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psykeout
Junior Member
I will construct a robotic posting device...
Posts: 56
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Post by psykeout on Jun 2, 2012 21:39:25 GMT
There is no god reason for him to abandon his daughter Ok, I will try to present a hypothetical situation in which Anthony is simply misguided. He is deeply damaged by the death of Surma, who it is evidenced that he loved very much. He never wanted to put that much emotional investment in someone that might leave him, and then when she died, he couldn't handle it and was hurt very deeply. He never got over the death of Surma. He loved his only daughter, Antimony, greatly, and she was all that was left of Surma. He wanted the best for her, and knew that he was not good enough in his current emotional state and relationship status to raise her on his own. He was scared to lose her, and scared of blaming her for her mother's death. So he arranged for her to live with his most trusted friends in an environment that would provide for all her physical, intellectual, and emotional needs, as well as to help her understand about her mother and father and the mysteries concerning even her own being, and left her life, so that she would not grow attached to a man that she should never have known, and so that he would not be able to hurt her, and so that she could live a life with a stable family and in a stable environment, and so that she would understand that he was not a person that she should look up to. In this situation, Tony is: Weak, unstable, self-loathing, an unfit parent, and irrational. He is also: loving, self-sacrificing, objective, well-intentioned, and probably deserving of some amount of sympathy. He is not evil. I'd also like to point out that characters that are just "bad because they aren't good" are terribly uninteresting, and it would not be a very good story if it was just "Annie learns how terrible her father is and then we move on because sometimes people who spend the greater part of their adult life trying to save their dying lover are just terrible people, and that's the way it is," and I trust Tom a lot more to create a character who has complexity and that we can understand on a deeper level, especially a character who is as important as Annie's dad. This is the last post I'm going to make on the matter because there's nothing more that I can say, and there's no sense in telling a blind man how tacky his shoes look.
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Post by SpitefulFox on Jun 2, 2012 22:42:13 GMT
Anthony's lack of face time reminds me waaaay too much of Fire Lord Ozai from Avatar. It's hard not to think of him as evil with that kind of association.
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Post by Bob, Squirrel King on Jun 2, 2012 23:34:09 GMT
I never thought of him as evil (that is, that he set out to purposefully hurt his daughter), I just thought he was Weak, unstable, self-loathing, an unfit parent, and irrational. All in all, the way he acted after Surma's death, with what we have been shown (and even the reasons most of the people who have been defending him have given) seem more selfish and cowardly to me than anything else, and one common definition says evil is, at its most basic level, selfishness.
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Post by GK Sierra on Jun 2, 2012 23:41:46 GMT
Wow, nice strawman. There's absolutely no resemblance between this and adoption, and arguing that there is is disingenuous. Frankly I find the fact that you'd equate abandonment and neglect to adoption offensive. The earlier image was still a bit blurry, so I messed around with the contrast and brightness rather than just darkening and there's a clear head outline visible. The face is turned to the side, with a visible nose and closed eyes, looks like there's short hair aswell. Still unreckognisable though. And there's a creepy splatter effect going on too (here's hoping it's just blood) Edit: After staring at it enough, it started looking like she knocked out his teeth... Even if it turns out not to be him, this is the most satisfying panel yet. Then again, maybe we're about to delve into Tony's dark little world. (Happy birthday pskyeout)
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Post by Lightice on Jun 2, 2012 23:44:09 GMT
All in all, the way he acted after Surma's death, with what we have been shown (and even the reasons most of the people who have been defending him have given) seem more selfish and cowardly to me than anything else, and one common definition says evil is, at its most basic level, selfishness. But the general assumption among the Evil!Tony crowd seems to be that his actions stem out of active malice, or dismissive negligience towards Annie. I find both opinions extremely unlikely. The most probable scenario from what we know right now in my opinion would be that he literally could not deal with the loss of Surma, and completely shut himself from emotional ties like Annie for so long that he in turn became ashamed to face his daughter again. That's the kind of person Donny's flashback would seem to indicate towards. However, we also can't dismiss the possibility that something may be actively impeding his communications. Like I mentioned before, he found it necessary to send a complex coded message to Donny in order to receive most basic medical supplies. That would seem to indicate that he's gone into hiding from something serious, and may be actively be distancing himself from Annie to protect her. But it's all just wild speculation until we learn more. I just wish that people would stop writing off the guy as a total monster before he even makes his first non-flashback appearance in the story. Annie seems to have good memories of the guy, in spite of his aloofness, so he can't be a completely rotten case.
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Post by negativeproximity on Jun 3, 2012 5:33:34 GMT
from what we know of tony, as a character study of him from what we've seen. (apart from his interactions with any) He does seem aloof, but he doesn't seem either weak nor evil as people are fond of presuming.
I'm 98.2% certain that there is something actually impeding his communication, just of how little people seem to actually be of that opinion. Tom is very talented in the arts of misdirection.
We do know that he cares enough about the welfare of his daughter to send her to a place where he knows she'll be protected and taught. We also know that HE knows he had old friends there, and he'd be a fool to think that they wouldn't take care of his and surma's daughter. He knows gunnerkrigg court well, as that's where he grew up too. (though he probably did have family he went home to over the summer, we should likely not make assumptions. We know nothing of neither his nor surma's parents.)
The one crime anyone would be able to pin to him (before the current chapter) would be his lack of communication. You can't even say neglect, because he ensured that Annie would be well taken care of and safe. And the lack of communication is also somewhat iffy, as we cannot be certain why exactly it is he hasn't been communicating. We know he did once, but we don't know what sort of resources that one message took, and we don't know what made it possible. (it is possible he is able to communicate freely, it is equally possible some force is actively impeding him. I'd lean more towards the latter, as his closest friend seems certain that Tony really does care. The one person in the world that knows him best, now. It would make sense that he didn't waste words in personal message to annie, if he had only limited resources to work with, and needed to get his point across before anything else. Therefore, he uses a code based around her name so that he could get his important message across, and make contact with his daughter at the same time. He's very logical, from what we've seen.)
The only other argument would be the current chapter, in which he seems to be directly responsible for his daughters condition. We know that Tom is a master of misdirection already though, so that doesn't really mean anything yet. We know neither Tony's motivations, nor what exactly he was doing at this moment in time.
I really do find him a fascinating character.
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Post by GK Sierra on Jun 3, 2012 6:01:21 GMT
Yeah, I have no doubt Tom has a great excuse for Tony's behavior that will produce a lot of angst and emotional torque i.e. Annie feels bad for hating him, but until then I'm content to keep despising him.
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Post by TBeholder on Jun 3, 2012 7:33:21 GMT
Well, yeah. No place on them Intertubes is automatically immune to random encounters with the Eagerly Offended - just like no place is automatically immune to the Slashfic Fangirls. Even if it turns out not to be him, this is the most satisfying panel yet. Yeah - Zimmy iz badass (even if misguided)! ;D Then again, maybe we're about to delve into Tony's dark little world. Hey, a good hypothesis! That's what Zimmy usually does, after all. from what we know of tony, as a character study of him from what we've seen. (apart from his interactions with any) He does seem aloof, but he doesn't seem either weak nor evil as people are fond of presuming. You already answered it yourself. I really do find him a fascinating character. I won't describe Anthony as "fascinating" character... but he carries a mystery or four. And that's what probably most of us seek in Gunnerkrigg.
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Kriselia
Junior Member
But she smells wonderful!
Posts: 87
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Post by Kriselia on Jun 3, 2012 12:59:20 GMT
The Anthony debate seems to be getting kind of exaggerated. I don't think anyone on the pro-Anthony team is denying that his effective abandoning of Annie affected her negatively, or saying that it was a perfectly fine decision from him. Just that he had an actual realistic-person motivation for his actions, rather than just being evil. Also, someone mentioned earlier that he might have an autism-spectrum disorder (don't even remember if it was this thread anymore...), so I'll toss my own guess that he fits well into Schizoid personality disorder ;D Yeah, I have no doubt Tom has a great excuse for Tony's behavior that will produce a lot of angst and emotional torque i.e. Annie feels bad for hating him, but until then I'm content to keep despising him. I don't think anything we've seen from Annie so far indicates she hates him. At first she blamed herself for him leaving (as kids tend to do), she seemed disappointed after the first summer, in the last chapter she seemed like she might be ready to get angry but then after talking with Donny she seemed sympathethic and like she just really misses him. I think if she dealt with her emotions she would get angry, but so far? Definitely not hate. I really do find him a fascinating character. Me too. It's also crazy how much of a major character he is without making a single real-time appearance in the comic.
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Post by snuffa on Jun 3, 2012 13:03:15 GMT
I know people say he spent years trying to save his wife so he can't be all bad- but I say he spent years trying to save his wife. Maybe he never stopped trying. ohhh yeah, seconded, that. This is exactly the vibe I'm getting here...
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Post by legion on Jun 3, 2012 13:10:20 GMT
Oh, and I'm not naively assuming he doesn't have a good reason for abandoning her, I'm saying that there's no good reason. It doesn't matter to me if he feels justified doing it for whatever reasons he has, I'm saying he's wrong. You keep saying that, even though it's not hard to imagine many very good reasons why one would abandon their child.
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Post by snuffa on Jun 3, 2012 13:10:36 GMT
I don't think anything we've seen from Annie so far indicates she hates him. At first she blamed herself for him leaving (as kids tend to do), she seemed disappointed after the first summer, in the last chapter she seemed like she might be ready to get angry but then after talking with Donny she seemed sympathethic and like she just really misses him. I think if she dealt with her emotions she would get angry, but so far? Definitely not hate. No, probably not hate. but then, we have this telling little moment: www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=1017for me, this shows that Annie also has a hard time thinking of Tony as a person, and not just a "father". No?
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Kriselia
Junior Member
But she smells wonderful!
Posts: 87
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Post by Kriselia on Jun 3, 2012 13:32:38 GMT
Yeah, very true. But I don't think it's too abnormal not to see parents as just people, the whole parent/child relationship is so different from other kinds. Annie does definitely seem to have the whole "Faceless father figure" thing going, she was also pretty shocked to see him cry back in the Fire Spike flashback. Also interesting, when she first met Muut she was saying "mom" and "dad" and kept correcting herself to be more formal. What's that all about?
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