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Post by smjjames on Jun 24, 2011 15:33:40 GMT
It is curious that most people who describe the development of the court explain it using the same words. if the court physically grew out of a single spot i wonder what is in that spot now? Well, a city certainly does grow almost organically, theres the origional settlement which a city grows out from. So, all they have to do is find the Courts 'Old Town'. Here, we see some buildings of Jeanne and Diegos day, and in Sky Watcher and the Angel, we see a few buildings with a similar archetecture, except that the foreground building looks more victorian to me, so the tower (of a church?) seems to be close to what would be considered 'Old Town'.
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Post by goldenknots on Jun 24, 2011 16:21:29 GMT
If it grew symmetrically, all they need to do is find the approximate edges and start looking around the center. Once they find it, it will be obvious. (In retrospect, of course, but it's often that way.)
So, will the location of The Seed Bismuth be an important plot element? I'm inclined to think it will.
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Post by blahzor on Jun 24, 2011 16:27:56 GMT
It is curious that most people who describe the development of the court explain it using the same words. if the court physically grew out of a single spot i wonder what is in that spot now? Well, a city certainly does grow almost organically, theres the origional settlement which a city grows out from. So, all they have to do is find the Courts 'Old Town'. Here, we see some buildings of Jeanne and Diegos day, and in Sky Watcher and the Angel, we see a few buildings with a similar archetecture, except that the foreground building looks more victorian to me, so the tower (of a church?) seems to be close to what would be considered 'Old Town'. well looking back on those links (mostly the Sky Watcher going to view the painting) I'm starting to believe there is some of that language code in the painting that the robots are seeing/reading. I come to this simply from the last panel in www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=641 for the extreme close up to the Sky Watchers eye
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Post by basser on Jun 24, 2011 17:41:04 GMT
Quick wake up all the other robots one by one and ask them the same question until one gives a straight answer!
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Post by hifranc on Jun 24, 2011 17:49:01 GMT
If the old robot is telling the truth, and we have no reason to doubt him, then it is likely they all feel the same way as he does. I just read the chapter straight through and one thing stuck out. In #896 the robot says "we intentionally deactivated ourselves". If they collectively came to that decision then...
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Post by smjjames on Jun 24, 2011 17:53:38 GMT
Well, a city certainly does grow almost organically, theres the origional settlement which a city grows out from. So, all they have to do is find the Courts 'Old Town'. Here, we see some buildings of Jeanne and Diegos day, and in Sky Watcher and the Angel, we see a few buildings with a similar archetecture, except that the foreground building looks more victorian to me, so the tower (of a church?) seems to be close to what would be considered 'Old Town'. well looking back on those links (mostly the Sky Watcher going to view the painting) I'm starting to believe there is some of that language code in the painting that the robots are seeing/reading. I come to this simply from the last panel in www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=641 for the extreme close up to the Sky Watchers eye A la Da Vinci Code? It'll be easy enough to ask any of the modern robots if there is a code of some kind embedded in the painting. Also, are the robots the ones who built the shrine? All this time we've been assuming that Diego is the one who made the shrine (it would be kind of tight for him, but possible to get through the tunnel) and we don't know if the main chamber was made when Diego was still alive or not. If it grew symmetrically, all they need to do is find the approximate edges and start looking around the center. Once they find it, it will be obvious. (In retrospect, of course, but it's often that way.) So, will the location of The Seed Bismuth be an important plot element? I'm inclined to think it will. While its true that cities tend to grow symmetrically, geography and other factors can affect the direction it grows.
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myzelf
Junior Member
Posts: 83
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Post by myzelf on Jun 24, 2011 20:08:02 GMT
Phooey. I was hoping Kat would refuse to do it, like a reasonable person.
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Post by hifranc on Jun 24, 2011 20:49:39 GMT
Phooey. I was hoping Kat would refuse to do it, like a reasonable person. Being "reasonable" depends on your point of view. I'm willing to bet that if you were to conduct a survey of all the readers of this forum, you will get a lot of different answers to what is "reasonable". Arguments for fulfilling the robot's request: - It's the compassionate thing to do.
- It's his body, not yours, so if you think they have any rights, it's his decision to make not yours.
- He seems very strong. If he decides to take matters into his own hands, could you stop him?
- Given how complex their code is, it would be hard for Kat to figure out how to repair him if he needed repairs.
- He may be suffering from the equivalent of a chronic disease.
- Just because he is from a different time/culture, it doesn't mean that his view of the world should be overruled when his proposed action is only aimed at himself.
- We do have the technology to revive them if necessary.
Arguments against fulfilling the robot's request: - Compassion doesn't necessarily mean killing someone, there are ways of showing compassion and keeping them alive.
- The decision was made hundreds of years ago. Society and values have changed since then.
- They switched themselves off because they thought that they had no use but they do have a use.
- Robots are not deserving of compassion.
- Robots are not deserving of rights of decision.
- Was the robot of sound mind when he made the decision to end his existence? Is he now?
- We need answers, the rights of one being can be overridden for that!
- Asking someone to review their decision, after being given new information, is not the same as denying them the right of agency.
- Don't forget that it is, in essence, killing another being.
Bear in mind that this is not a comprehensive list -- just the ones that I could think of quickly. I apologise if my arguments against are weak because I do think Kat did the right thing. {edit} When writing these I tried to think of individual arguments for both sides. Some points may contradict other points in the same block. {edit 2} Added an argument to each side.
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Post by paxjax123 on Jun 24, 2011 21:10:02 GMT
Phooey. I was hoping Kat would refuse to do it, like a reasonable person. You know, this post reminded me of Jack Kevorkian. A doctor who helped terminally ill patients commit suicide. Just imagine Frankenbot as a terminally ill patient. He knows this isn't his time, and Kat Kevorkian is willing to help him leave this time.
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Post by tustin2121 on Jun 24, 2011 21:13:56 GMT
Well, considering the source, it's likely the talk of the Court growing from Seed Bismuth is literal, not metaphorical. *sudden realization!* Of COURSE it was literal! How else could you explain THIS?! (why had I not connected this before!?)
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Post by todd on Jun 24, 2011 22:15:45 GMT
I've probably mentioned this before, but the notion of the Court being grown from the Bismuth Seed would certainly explain *why* it's where it is, at the edge of Gillitie Wood. That was where the Seed was; nowhere else in the world, apparently, would do for its location. (I might have said this before as well, but I wonder whether the Founders knew about the Seed all along and that was why they came to the Wood. I've even speculated before that that was the real purpose and that they either made up that story about fleeing from trouble in the outside world to conceal their true intentions from the forest-folk, who might not have wanted anyone to meddle with the Seed, or at best, only a minor reason. Certainly they can't still be fearing that trouble, if the Donlans go on holiday to various parts of Europe in such a carefree fashion.)
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Post by hifranc on Jun 24, 2011 22:43:54 GMT
I've probably mentioned this before, but the notion of the Court being grown from the Bismuth Seed would certainly explain *why* it's where it is, at the edge of Gillitie Wood. That was where the Seed was; nowhere else in the world, apparently, would do for its location. (I might have said this before as well, but I wonder whether the Founders knew about the Seed all along and that was why they came to the Wood. I've even speculated before that that was the real purpose and that they either made up that story about fleeing from trouble in the outside world to conceal their true intentions from the forest-folk, who might not have wanted anyone to meddle with the Seed, or at best, only a minor reason. Certainly they can't still be fearing that trouble, if the Donlans go on holiday to various parts of Europe in such a carefree fashion.) You are forgetting that, until about 60 years ago (less if you consider the former Yugoslavia), wars between European countries were common. Even for wars just in the UK, there's the English Civil War, there are the wars between England and Scotland that lead to Scotland being absorbed (the Scots came surprisingly far south), wars between England and Wales, don't forget the Vikings used to attack Britain all the time, there's 1066, etc. Also, given that the people would have had to have dealt with Coyote, I suspect that they would not have received aid if he suspected that they were up to tricks (who else to spot a liar than a trickster?). {edit 1} added Viking raids {edit 2} added Yugoslavia Also, don't forget that, in Medieval times, slave ships used to raid coastal areas of Britain (especially the South Coast) to sell to the Middle East market. {edit 3} Not to mention natural disasters and/or disease (e.g. the black death, smallpox, etc). I can't remember how it was phrased in the explanation to the building of GK but, even if it was strife they were fleeing from, disasters can lead to strife.
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Post by Aurelia Verity on Jun 25, 2011 3:24:21 GMT
It is curious that most people who describe the development of the court explain it using the same words. if the court physically grew out of a single spot i wonder what is in that spot now? Well, a city certainly does grow almost organically, theres the origional settlement which a city grows out from. So, all they have to do is find the Courts 'Old Town'. Here, we see some buildings of Jeanne and Diegos day, and in Sky Watcher and the Angel, we see a few buildings with a similar archetecture, except that the foreground building looks more victorian to me, so the tower (of a church?) seems to be close to what would be considered 'Old Town'. I have never noticed that! It would be very cool if the court, as it expands and grows, keeps up with the architecture of the age. in that case we could tell the age and evolution of the court much like you can tell an age of a tree by it's rings.
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Post by todd on Jun 25, 2011 10:46:51 GMT
Also, given that the people would have had to have dealt with Coyote, I suspect that they would not have received aid if he suspected that they were up to tricks (who else to spot a liar than a trickster?). Coyote indicated in "Coyote Tales" that he didn't arrive in Gillitie Wood until after the Founders were already there. In any case, even if he saw through their story, he might have decided to let them stay because of the potential for mischief and amusement (for himself) that their presence would create.
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vebyast
New Member
Usually I'm the Blue Marble, but this seems more appropriate
Posts: 45
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Post by vebyast on Jun 27, 2011 3:02:46 GMT
I suspect that someone has already thought of this, but - what if Frank didn't want to answer any questions? The robots didn't deactivate themselves because it was the end of their time, they deactivated themselves to preserve some huge secret. Frank's doing everything he can to suicide ASAP to avoid answering questions, and he's giving the intentionally-maximally-confusing party line (" It grew from the seed bismuth" == "there is no cabal") whenever someone sneaks one in.
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Post by blahzor on Jun 27, 2011 11:01:40 GMT
well looking back on those links (mostly the Sky Watcher going to view the painting) I'm starting to believe there is some of that language code in the painting that the robots are seeing/reading. I come to this simply from the last panel in www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=641 for the extreme close up to the Sky Watchers eye A la Da Vinci Code? It'll be easy enough to ask any of the modern robots if there is a code of some kind embedded in the painting. Also, are the robots the ones who built the shrine? All this time we've been assuming that Diego is the one who made the shrine (it would be kind of tight for him, but possible to get through the tunnel) and we don't know if the main chamber was made when Diego was still alive or not. yea but none of the robots we've seen so far have specialized sensors like the weather station one, and he did not know of the tomb until Robot brought him there. It seems that the S1's made the tomb and they are far more advanced (their hearts) yet so far behind the newer robots
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Post by Stately Buff-Cookie on Jun 27, 2011 19:29:04 GMT
Advanced is a matter of perspective.
A machine is only as advanced as it is good at it's function. You can put all the fancy crap in you want, but does it make it better at the purpose it was built for? Diego's "robots" aren't necessarily better. So far we only know they are different, and being so hard to understand that difference makes us assume their workings and design are automatically better.
Not saying I don't think they're better. Just saying. Keep that in mind. Humans both fear and romanticize that which they do not understand.
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Post by Mezzaphor on Jun 28, 2011 0:15:52 GMT
It's worth noting that Frank himself was more impressed with the designs of the current robot generation, because he considered them more efficient.
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myzelf
Junior Member
Posts: 83
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Post by myzelf on Jun 28, 2011 2:33:45 GMT
Phooey. I was hoping Kat would refuse to do it, like a reasonable person. You know, this post reminded me of Jack Kevorkian. A doctor who helped terminally ill patients commit suicide. Just imagine Frankenbot as a terminally ill patient. He knows this isn't his time, and Kat Kevorkian is willing to help him leave this time. But the old robot isn't terminally ill. There's nothing physically wrong with him, and he's not in any apparent discomfort, while he has information that could be useful. I can't think of any reason not to at least postpone his deactivation.
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Post by Stately Buff-Cookie on Jun 28, 2011 5:02:54 GMT
It's worth noting that Frank himself was more impressed with the designs of the current robot generation, because he considered them more efficient. Essentially what I was trying to hint at, yes. As a real world example, there are certain technologies in industry that are not in common use despite being more "advanced". The new high tech way of doing things, in some instances, makes more problems than it solves simply by the virtue of being a high tech system. It's touchy and needs lots of upkeep. The old way gets it done efficiently without the extra fuss. There are even machines that were designed in the friggin industrial revolution that are still used to make things you enjoy now. They aren't replaced with newer things because they already do their job perfectly despite looking ancient. Very advanced work. Or something as simple as a coat. I saw a program that compared.. I think viking make winter gear with a suit made of the most high tech modern materials we have. Surprise surprise. The viking made animal leathers using old viking craftsmanship was the warmer, more comfortable, gear. So which society is more advanced in that respect? Is the synthetic more advanced just because it's artificial?
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Post by warrl on Jul 2, 2011 2:04:51 GMT
If the old robot is telling the truth, and we have no reason to doubt him, then it is likely they all feel the same way as he does. I just read the chapter straight through and one thing stuck out. In #896 the robot says "we intentionally deactivated ourselves". If they collectively came to that decision then... On the other hand, they may have randomly chosen to awaken JimJonesBot. *sudden realization!* Of COURSE it was literal! How else could you explain THIS?! We know Ysengrin was lying, at least about having just found the wrecked tictoc. We just don't know how much else he was lying about.
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Post by Mezzaphor on Jul 2, 2011 2:42:30 GMT
Well, we also know that the TicToc Ysengrin threw on the floor of the Court had far more metal guts than it did the last time Annie saw it. In fact, that tube sticking out of the bird in ch 14 looks too big to have physically fit inside the TicToc while it was alive. So I think it's rather doubtful that the TicToc's growth was just a lie from Ysengrin.
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