caelo
New Member
Posts: 19
|
Post by caelo on Dec 27, 2010 15:07:32 GMT
I think Annie is guilt stricken, over having "killed" Surma, but ultimately isn't willing to confess her wrong doing, also every one really already knows, so instead she confess another thing she feels guilty for one she a) thinks is a secret , b) believes is relevant, and c) while being guilty by inheritance she is still not truly guilty of. As well her belief that no harm will come to her is more founded on her casual relation with Coyote than his actual word. Finally I think that this is Wandering Eye / Jones at her most forceful not ' let me incite her curiosity' you should, like you should at least go to the forest to see both sides of the story, but a I represent the court and if you don't want to get in trouble you should, they are very different and Coyote knows it, also he might be playing Annie's feelings and she really meant you and I should run really fast before where both dead. I'm not very inclined to this idea since Annie had yet to confess.
|
|
|
Post by fronzel on Dec 27, 2010 16:15:16 GMT
You'd think, as a trickster god, Coyote might find his cousin being tricked funny...but maybe he's a hypocrite who can't take what he dishes out...yeah, probably.
|
|
|
Post by strainofthought on Dec 27, 2010 16:22:56 GMT
No one has pointed this out yet, to my surprise: Several people have said Annie's statement isn't a big reveal, or that Coyote already knows it, but it strikes me that while Coyote knew that Renard loved Surma, he very likely has no idea that Surma pretended to return his affections late in the game in a gambit to get him into the court. He sounded genuine when he spoke of Surma with affection; I think it might be a tremendous betrayal, to Coyote, that a medium he trusted would come into his forest and fake affections for his closest "brother" in order to aid his capture. I think, so far, Coyote has written off Renard's capture as basically Renard's fault; he chose to enter the Court of his own will, after all, and while he's heartbroken that Renard was tricked and captured, he feels that the Court abided by the rules of fair play. Finding out that Surma used her position to lie may change things dramatically.
I've been wondering a lot about Surma's motivations, and it occurs to me that whoever Renard killed to get into the court may have been a friend of Surma's, and the general tone I got from Anja was that the mission kind of went pear shaped even if they did technically capture Renard, so perhaps the bad outcome of "Operation Out-Fox" was one of the major things that pushed Surma to leave the court? Remember, Sivo *died* in that fight. It sounds like Surma could consider both their blood on her hands.
|
|
|
Post by kelseyg on Dec 27, 2010 16:24:45 GMT
The last panel doesn't make sense to me, either: it comes out of seemingly nowhere. A few possibilities: (A) Annie thinks this will make Coyote angry at the court, and thus angry enough to chase away Jones. However, Coyote was already siding with her -- was this necessary? (B) Annie is just an idiot and thinks Coyote is a friend to confide in. She might not realize that he's personally invested in this, somehow.
|
|
|
Post by starcadet on Dec 27, 2010 16:29:11 GMT
These pages have me going "ANNIE STOP TALKING AND DIGGING YOUR GRAVE DEEPER" XD Everything she says in this chapter seems to spawn bad things! As for it making sense or not, I took it as her last ditch effort to get something out of Coyote before Jones takes her away, because clearly Annie has no idea how Jones is going to do it so blurting it out would get her to stay in the Forest even for just a bit longer.
|
|
tyto
New Member
Posts: 5
|
Post by tyto on Dec 27, 2010 16:39:12 GMT
i seriously doubt this will escalate, as the comic says, "the forest are based on posturing and showing teeth" but i'm actually more scared of jones on this one than of coyotes anger. panel six is an awesome puzzle to me, his body is big and he's facing straigh foward, yet his feet are behind ysengrin, i'd imagine ysengrin ready for a fight, being the hotheaded canine that he is, yet very mindful of the fact that jones could squash him like a bug. i do not beleive a single lie has been said here..., but i'm thinking in literal, not in subtext. as i see it, this is more of a "devil and angel on each shoulder" situation, both of them have placed emphasis on annies choice..., but the "i can take her if i wish" made me piss my pants, tho we all know that just coz you can't doesn't mean that you should, and just coz you should doesn't mean that you will... seriously, i think the only time violence and strength have been used in the comic at all is with robot at the bridge and with jeanne at the ravines. the rest i think is barely threats and teasing...., it feels almost like tantric scriptmaking or maybe i'm wrong and an awesome apocalypse will ensue..., either way, this won't deflate easily, just for the diplomatic implications EDIT: also, didn't coyote saw "wandering eye" in the fangs of summertime? she was there plain in sight,
|
|
jandor
Junior Member
Posts: 50
|
Post by jandor on Dec 27, 2010 16:46:35 GMT
Maybe Jones is referencing some old agreement with Coyote that says she can take people from the Forest if she wants, or recover wayward school kids, or something.
Rather than it being a 'I can kick yours and Ysengrins ass, Coyote. I'm taking Annie." style threat.
|
|
|
Post by hal9000 on Dec 27, 2010 16:54:46 GMT
This seems to lend some support to the theory that Jones is a god or weakly-godlike entity.
I have a feeling that if a battle results from this, it will be glorious to watch (from low earth orbit).
|
|
|
Post by legion on Dec 27, 2010 17:10:15 GMT
Wow, suddenly this is getting tense again!
I love this chapter!
|
|
haunt
New Member
Posts: 14
|
Post by haunt on Dec 27, 2010 17:15:37 GMT
Jarring chord.
Well, next page, either Coyote'll exclaim that he's known that all along (and possibly explain the context in which it happened, or his reaction at the time) or he'll react with surprise. Possibly anger, although we've never properly seen Coyote angry apart from the time he scolded Ysengrin in Fangs of Summertime.
As for Jones taking Annie, I'm interested to learn about this history (eventually--it's doubtful that we'll see it now) and see who Jones took before, and for what reason. In this case, the Court probably assumes that if Annie isn't thinking about taking the test, then Coyote will use this upset to convince her that she should. Anja probably told them that she told Annie about Surma, and they're likely assuming that that's what she's upset about--I don't think they know that Renard told her about killing her mother yet.
|
|
|
Post by jayne on Dec 27, 2010 17:17:49 GMT
Tyto, yes, Jones was there in "The Fangs of Summertime" but she was only there as an observer and so, Coyote was uninterested in her. He had no way of knowing she changed her name to Jones, and I'm thinking he called Eglamore "James" because that's how Surma spoke of him.
Jone's role as observer might be why Coyote is so surprised she is taking an active role here. Perhaps she's not supposed to interfere with that which she observes.
|
|
|
Post by Refugee on Dec 27, 2010 17:53:36 GMT
Sorry, Annie, I gotta call 'em like I see 'em. Also, Wandering Eye is a region fairy who passed her test. She no longer cares that her hair doesn't go up.
|
|
|
Post by djublonskopf on Dec 27, 2010 18:08:26 GMT
No one has pointed this out yet, to my surprise: Several people have said Annie's statement isn't a big reveal, or that Coyote already knows it, but it strikes me that while Coyote knew that Renard loved Surma, he very likely has no idea that Surma pretended to return his affections late in the game in a gambit to get him into the court. He sounded genuine when he spoke of Surma with affection; I think it might be a tremendous betrayal, to Coyote, that a medium he trusted would come into his forest and fake affections for his closest "brother" in order to aid his capture. I think, so far, Coyote has written off Renard's capture as basically Renard's fault; he chose to enter the Court of his own will, after all, and while he's heartbroken that Renard was tricked and captured, he feels that the Court abided by the rules of fair play. Finding out that Surma used her position to lie may change things dramatically. I came here to posit this if nobody had already (but you did). It could be that Coyote was just posturing in "The Fangs of Summertime" . . . when he said Reynard was "tricked!", he didn't really mean it, and he's now surprised to find out that his bluster was right. My other (conflicting) thought was that he may be looking at Annie in the last panel . . . sort of a "what the heck do you think you're trying to do, little girl" reaction. I myself am wondering what the heck she's trying to do.
|
|
|
Post by paxjax123 on Dec 27, 2010 18:19:23 GMT
There are a few outcomes I can see from this. 1. Coyote goes srs and yells at Annie and Jones to "LEAVE, NOW." 2. Ysengrin gets butthurt and freaks out and attacks Annie. 3. Coyote goes "lul" and explains that he knew about it and Ysengrin goes all ">:T"
|
|
|
Post by jayne on Dec 27, 2010 18:48:00 GMT
"You're making a mistake".... Assume Jones has spoken with Reynard and knows the history behind it all. Annie said, "So, my mother... TRICKED Renard into thinking she loved him"Anja said, "well... yes" but it might be that she didn't know the whole story. Jones would probably know the whole story and she can explain more fully than Anja can. Possibly the mistake is thinking Surma tricked Rey when that isn't exactly what happened. If so, the next scene should be Jones explaining it all.
|
|
|
Post by patredwood on Dec 27, 2010 19:08:44 GMT
It is wild how much the lack of that toothy smile changes Coyote's appearance. I'm anxious to see what he does with this info.
|
|
Spike
Junior Member
Posts: 67
|
Post by Spike on Dec 27, 2010 19:20:45 GMT
Coyote's face in the last panel doesn't have any hint of anger at all, but when I look at it, I see no smile, and I think that everyone will quite possibly die now.
|
|
|
Post by 0o0f on Dec 27, 2010 20:15:06 GMT
NEXT TIME (I could be doing something better than make stupid edits, but nah)
|
|
|
Post by coreshadow on Dec 27, 2010 20:27:12 GMT
I actually shivered so much when i saw coyote's face i just had to make it my avatar
|
|
|
Post by zylonbane on Dec 27, 2010 20:50:31 GMT
I actually shivered so much when i saw coyote's face i just had to make it my avatar ...badly. Memo to everybody: If you don't scale down your avatar images to the size that they'll actually be displayed at, then the web browser will do it for you, and it'll look like crap (and take longer to load than necessary).
|
|
|
Post by todd on Dec 27, 2010 23:24:33 GMT
I've been wondering a lot about Surma's motivations, and it occurs to me that whoever Renard killed to get into the court may have been a friend of Surma's, and the general tone I got from Anja was that the mission kind of went pear shaped even if they did technically capture Renard, so perhaps the bad outcome of "Operation Out-Fox" was one of the major things that pushed Surma to leave the court? Remember, Sivo *died* in that fight. It sounds like Surma could consider both their blood on her hands. Not to mention that the reason why Renard accepted Coyote's gift was because he'd fallen in love with Surma - through her manipulations - and before that happened, had refused Coyote's offer. So the Court's scheming produced the very result it was trying to avoid.
|
|
|
Post by Tenjen on Dec 27, 2010 23:28:27 GMT
i think coyote already knew this. Maybe.
as to why he isnt smiling. Maybe more so because annie knows or because he knows something that suggests otherwise to what annie thinks/just said.
Its safe to assume coyote always knows more than he's letting on.
but coyote is actually expressing his seriousness rather than being subtlety coy and joyful with serious intentions underneath. Thats worrying
|
|
|
Post by binarytears on Dec 28, 2010 0:41:47 GMT
Oh, apparently we ARE getting into THIS again, bitch.
It's not just the cheshire vanishing smile that makes Coyote scary. Watch his ears over the last few frames. With dogs' and cats' ears, 'laid back' is NOT good. That's one seriously pissed canine God there. Facing one seriously menacing and confident total unknown.
Also, every single spoken word in this strip, by _everyone_, is so dripping with unspoken implications associated to past 'history' (that we know almost nothing of), that it's nearly impossible for us to be sure what the heck is really being said. Even by Annie.
Now, is Jones taking care to phrase everything so open-endedly ('Should', 'mistake', 'IF I wish') because she genuinely wants to avoid conflict? Or is that just her habit of speech, and really she's intending to force things to happen exactly as she 'suggests' they 'should'?
|
|
|
Post by camouflage on Dec 28, 2010 2:09:15 GMT
No one has pointed this out yet, to my surprise: Several people have said Annie's statement isn't a big reveal, or that Coyote already knows it, but it strikes me that while Coyote knew that Renard loved Surma, he very likely has no idea that Surma pretended to return his affections late in the game in a gambit to get him into the court. He sounded genuine when he spoke of Surma with affection; I think it might be a tremendous betrayal, to Coyote, that a medium he trusted would come into his forest and fake affections for his closest "brother" in order to aid his capture. I think, so far, Coyote has written off Renard's capture as basically Renard's fault; he chose to enter the Court of his own will, after all, and while he's heartbroken that Renard was tricked and captured, he feels that the Court abided by the rules of fair play. Finding out that Surma used her position to lie may change things dramatically. Right, what Annie said there is nothing less than admitting that the court basically broke the armistice. Actually I don't think Coyote is angry because of this info - I actually think he already knew - but actually, I don't think Coyote's reaction is the real danger here. Do not forget about Ysengrin! He definitely didn't know, because to one like Ysengrin, an action like that is a prime example of causa belli - a reason for war. I think Coyote's expression in the last panel is more one of shock and sorrow, as Annie's outburst will most likely have Ysengrin call for bloody vengeance and all out war, and most likely in a way that Coyote can't easily ignore.
|
|
|
Post by fronzel on Dec 28, 2010 2:32:10 GMT
[what Annie said there is nothing less than admitting that the court basically broke the armistice. Do they have an armistice? Was there a reason to think there had been fighting? From what I can tell (and remember ), the Court and forest basically try to leave each other alone...and Renard forfeited that courtesy by entering the Court, whether he was tricked or not.
|
|
|
Post by strainofthought on Dec 28, 2010 2:56:56 GMT
Right, what Annie said there is nothing less than admitting that the court basically broke the armistice. Actually I don't think Coyote is angry because of this info - I actually think he already knew - but actually, I don't think Coyote's reaction is the real danger here. Do not forget about Ysengrin! He definitely didn't know, because to one like Ysengrin, an action like that is a prime example of causa belli - a reason for war. I think Coyote's expression in the last panel is more one of shock and sorrow, as Annie's outburst will most likely have Ysengrin call for bloody vengeance and all out war, and most likely in a way that Coyote can't easily ignore. Camouflage, I don't think Surma lying to Renard about her feelings is quite *that* serious. The Court didn't attack The Forest, and Surma was there with permission. What Surma did didn't directly involve The Court, and technically Coyote *still* can't complain that The Court took Renard away against his will. But in a way, that's what makes it so terrible: Surma pretending to return Renard's affections was *personal*. It's the job of a diplomat to befriend and build trust so that open communication can take place between two entities; once they're in that position, they have a duty to remain impartial towards the information itself, or they won't be trusted anymore and communication will break down. This doesn't mean that Coyote would have had unrealistic perceptions of Surma's loyalty; on the contrary, he probably would have been disappointed in her if she didn't report anything of importance she learned to her superiors. And likewise, he probably expected that much of the information she relayed was mis-information that had been fed to her, and that she probably knew or suspected some of it was misinformation. But- and this is very important- in order for *any* real communication to take place, Coyote and the other denizens of the forest had to be able to trust that Surma *personally* wouldn't lie to them, and while factions inside the Court might seek the forest's destruction and the death of its inhabitants, Surma *personally* would take no such action and in fact oppose it so long as she was a welcome guest there. But Surma misleading Renard about the status of the private relationship between them, as part of a plan to ultimately capture a creature of the forest, meant that her relationship with the forest creatures was a sham, and that she had always been nothing more than a servant of Court interests. As a diplomat, that's a very severe transgression, one that really can't be blamed on The Court, and that Surma has to take responsibility for herself, no matter how corrupting The Court's influence may have been.
|
|
|
Post by Yin on Dec 28, 2010 3:04:10 GMT
It looks to me that whether Annie likes it or not, Jones is going to take her back to the Court. That 'you should come back' is offering her the option to come willingly.q
|
|
rob0tt
New Member
guess who's back in town, techno-tinkers
Posts: 34
|
Post by rob0tt on Dec 28, 2010 4:17:36 GMT
I actually thought Coyote looked more surprised than angry. HOWEVAH. I think these new hints about who Jones really is open up a whole new window of speculation regarding when she was hit in the face with a sword.
|
|
|
Post by goldenknots on Dec 28, 2010 4:51:54 GMT
I think it's quite possible that Antimony has gone from hot rage to cold anger, and she's bent on stirring things up to the maximum, just to make a point. It's going to shift the balance of power for these things to be known publicly, even if they were known in private. She's turning over rocks to see what scuttles away, and she doesn't much care whose feelings might be offended.
Loren
|
|
ryos
Full Member
Posts: 175
|
Post by ryos on Dec 28, 2010 5:01:44 GMT
Nah. Look at her face as she makes her proclamation. That's concern, not anger.
People are trying to read some scheming intent into Annie's actions here. I'll tell you, I don't see it. I think Annie is doing this because she *likes* Coyote. She's telling her friend something that she thinks he would want to know. Not out of anger at the court (though she's never shown it much loyalty) but simply out of friendship.
SO. Jones. Googling for "wandering eye mythology" turns up references to the "wandering eye of Ra." So she's an Egyptian goddess associated with the king of the underworld. Probably not as powerful as Coyote, but certainly a force to be reckoned with.
|
|