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Post by dismalscientist on Dec 20, 2010 22:09:20 GMT
Perhaps Anthony tried and make a deal or something with Coyote, that led to Surma an him running off together, however he wasn't told until later that if he and Surma had a child that Surma would die. Maybe; this sort of idea has been proposed before. But given the way Renard chose to phrase his exclamation -- "We all knew it would happen! Even your damned father! Especially him!" -- I'd put money on Anthony knowing well before he and Surma disappeared from the court. That curious "especially" seems significant to me. Well, he could easily have known about without realizing how much it would affect him. We also don't know the nature of his disappearance or how harsh this has really made him toward his daughter -- it's possible he's completely forgiven her, if not emotionally. I'm honestly not sure how much support either proposition really has. I doubt she was tricking anyone except Renard; I don't know in what respect others could have been manipulating her.
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Post by jayne on Dec 20, 2010 22:16:36 GMT
He isn't using that artist's image. He made his own image. If you study art, you can draw the Mona Lisa and its fine as long as you sign it yourself. Your "Mona Lisa" is unique from da Vinci's "Mona Lisa" You only get in trouble if you sign it "da Vinci" and try to sell it By this point I'm totally hijacking, sorry, and apologies if I'm misrepresenting you, but is the above generally true? E.g., if I took someone else's original drawing, copied it nearly exactly, signed it "James Cunningham", and sold it, I wouldn't run afoul of copyright -- at least in the US? This seems to imply otherwise: This appears to be the case in the UK as well, cite, if this counts as copying or adaptation -- unless it's fair use. Well, it's all a muck, I suppose. Regardless, given the nature of the anatomically correct skull in the comic, I just don't see how such a claim could be demonstrated. Since its an anatomical drawing, there had to be an actual skull at some point. Given the precise angles and lighting for both views, it suggests there was a photo taken that was used as a model for the drawing. If Tom used as a model an anatomical drawing that was modeled on a photograph but did not copy/edit/modify the anatomical drawing, I think its back to being his own work. He's not trying to reproduce her drawing, just using it as a reference. For that matter, he might have found the same photograph she used as a model in some anatomy book.
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Post by jayne on Dec 20, 2010 22:35:45 GMT
This could easily be the model too... (dingo on left, coyote on right)
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Post by TBeholder on Dec 20, 2010 22:44:13 GMT
Funny, I get the feeling I've seen that skull somewhere before. Hmmm. You read El Goonish Shive Extremely Gratuitous Shapeshifting? I'm thinking Surma got her powers from Coyote with the flaw Coyote apparently doesn't give awesome stuff and nasty flaws, he gives awesome stuff that turns out to have nasty flaws. With the toothknife he warned only of an implication of the "awesome" part, and it's still possible that the real flaw is something else. Thus - no, but her mother / grandmother / ancestress back from Stone Age is another story, of course. I take Tom's comment "Annie always wondered about the "still" to mean that the skull was something Annie perceived at that moment. Just after her mother said "He still loves you very much" On the one eyestalk, it's inside the flashback frame. On the other, style shift. Has anyone pointed out that this 'having a child kills the bearer of the fire' thing may operate all down the line? Yes. So, maybe Anthony left Annie because otherwise he would not be able to hide his anger from her... Since the more she resembles her mother, the more he's going to be tortured, and it wouldn't be healthy for either of them... sending her to Donlans seems to be about the only option.
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percival
Full Member
there's a storm a-brewin'
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Post by percival on Dec 21, 2010 0:18:54 GMT
Oh, very true. Hmm. Maybe it has something to do with Phoenixes, thats the only thing I can surmise, and its probably already been guessed a thousand times. Cos annie is, essentially, Surma's rebirth. As always, we wait for Tom to reveal his clever plan. Thanks Ah... a phoenix theory... I think that's new. I like it! This was suggested in the wild speculation thread a few weeks ago too. It does seem to fit quite well:Surma or one of her ancestors was a phoenix that took the test and became human, but still retained some phoenix qualities (fire, rebirth, the ability to fly).
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Post by 0o0f on Dec 21, 2010 0:25:15 GMT
Interesting theory, but in that case I think it's more likely that it was one of her ancestors. If it was Surma, that seems a bit odd.
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ryos
Full Member
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Post by ryos on Dec 21, 2010 0:38:28 GMT
The "phoenix that took the test" theory is awesome. But, I think the test is fairly new—as in, it was instated when Surma left the Court. Where am I getting this idea? I don't recall. Can anyone confirm or deny?
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Post by Zayzie on Dec 21, 2010 1:29:27 GMT
Perhaps Anthony tried and make a deal or something with Coyote, that led to Surma an him running off together, however he wasn't told until later that if he and Surma had a child that Surma would die. Maybe; this sort of idea has been proposed before. But given the way Renard chose to phrase his exclamation -- "We all knew it would happen! Even your damned father! Especially him!" -- I'd put money on Anthony knowing well before he and Surma disappeared from the court. That curious "especially" seems significant to me. Well, he could easily have known about without realizing how much it would affect him. We also don't know the nature of his disappearance or how harsh this has really made him toward his daughter -- it's possible he's completely forgiven her, if not emotionally. I'm honestly not sure how much support either proposition really has. I doubt she was tricking anyone except Renard; I don't know in what respect others could have been manipulating her. I was not the one speculating that Surma was tricking everyone, I just mentioned that perhaps there was more trickery involved between Anthony and Surma, considering the appearance of the coyote/canine skull at the end of the comic, than anything else. I also find it hard to believe that a man who "especially" knew that Surma would die from giving birth to Annie, would, in turn, act so distant and cold towards her. While there is no proof supporting tat he still harbors harsh feelings for her he has clearly never acted as a father, something that time, preparation, and acceptance would do if he "especially" knew. The fact that he didn't seems to suggest he was in some sort of denial, or that there may have been some trickery involved. Reynard did not put a timeframe on when he especially knew, as that could just be referencing Surma's death and him not being able to do anything about it. If it's more than that, then it shows that Reynard knew more about Anthony than him just being the man that "stole Surma." If that is the case then I think there's a bit more malicious tone to all this than just ignorance or neglect, since I find it hard to believe that Surma manipulated Rey in the worst possible way because they found him a potential threat. I find the psychological and emotional involvment in the circumstances surrounding Annie and her mother's death to feel a bit more complicated, especially with such an ominous panel right after "he still loves you."
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Post by fuzzysocks on Dec 21, 2010 1:35:33 GMT
Perhaps Anthony tried and make a deal or something with Coyote, that led to Surma an him running off together, however he wasn't told until later that if he and Surma had a child that Surma would die. Maybe; this sort of idea has been proposed before. But given the way Renard chose to phrase his exclamation -- "We all knew it would happen! Even your damned father! Especially him!" -- I'd put money on Anthony knowing well before he and Surma disappeared from the court. That curious "especially" seems significant to me. Even knowing though, within the last minute of someone's life, they'll still put the blame on someone. Many people think they can handle the situation when it happens, but when the repercussions start to arise they usually place the blame on the thing that caused it to happen... even if it was made by their own choice.
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Post by q3 on Dec 21, 2010 2:55:16 GMT
One year later, Anthony finally arrives at the Court, but the reunion is not a happy one.
ANNIE: Father, do you hate me? Knowing that I am responsible for mother's death?
TONY: Why do you think that I hate you, Antimony?
ANNIE: When last we met, you glared at me and walked by me as though I were contemptible. Also you left after that and have eschewed all contact with me for two years.
TONY: Yes, well, I was rather upset that my daughter would do something so unrefined as to chew on a pencil. But please note that, technically, I am the one who is responsible for Surma's death, having been the one to impregnate her and all.
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Post by Elaienar on Dec 21, 2010 3:08:10 GMT
One year later, Anthony finally arrives at the Court, but the reunion is not a happy one. ANNIE: Father, do you hate me? Knowing that I am responsible for mother's death? TONY: Why do you think that I hate you, Antimony? ANNIE: When last we met, you glared at me and walked by me as though I were contemptible. Also you left after that and have eschewed all contact with me for two years. TONY: Yes, well, I was rather upset that my daughter would do something so unrefined as to chew on a pencil. But please note that, technically, I am the one who is responsible for Surma's death, having been the one to impregnate her and all. Please fill a bottle with your undiluted awesome and mail it to me. I will pay all the money I have ($5) for it.
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Post by mistysoul on Dec 21, 2010 3:13:04 GMT
Ah... a phoenix theory... I think that's new. I like it! This was suggested in the wild speculation thread a few weeks ago too. It does seem to fit quite well:Surma or one of her ancestors was a phoenix that took the test and became human, but still retained some phoenix qualities (fire, rebirth, the ability to fly). I was just reading the wikipedia article on the phoenix, and it mentions that there are some old stories in which phoenixes are able to impersonate or shapeshift into humans. Very, very interesting. This kind of reminds me of the kitsune myths. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_(mythology)
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Post by Mezzaphor on Dec 21, 2010 3:41:04 GMT
Guys, we know from here that Surma passed away about a month prior to chapter 2. Thanks to art evolution and a flashback this is what Annie looked like back in Ch 2. Annie on today's page looks much younger than that. Today's page can not have been immediately prior to Surma's death; heck, I'll be surprised if today's page is within a year of her passing. And I'm not seeing how Tony's look is directing any emotion towards Annie, let alone anger.
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Post by Elaienar on Dec 21, 2010 4:14:37 GMT
And I'm not seeing how Tony's look is directing any emotion towards Annie, let alone anger. I agree. He doesn't look angry, just unhappy. And aside from Anthony's face, the things that interest me most about this page are his hands in the fourth and fifth panels. When people (well, the people I know) are angry, they react with their bodies -- they stamp their feet, swing their arms, clench their fists, hunch forward, etc. Anthony's hands are loose and his back is straight. He's not even moving fast, or his coat would be billowing. It looks like he just stood up and walked calmly out of the room. Antimony's expressions in those two panels look to me like leftover surprise from seeing him visibly upset, not worry that he's mad at her about something.
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Post by basser on Dec 21, 2010 5:36:51 GMT
From the pictures I've seen, this skull looks more like a wolf skull than a coyote skull, but I could be wrong. Definitively a canis skull though. Also, since this flashback is also a dream, it could be simply the dream turning into a nightmare. Wolves and coyotes are so similar it's difficult to tell them apart genetically, let alone by looking at skulls. They're basically only differentiated because people don't want to have to call the scrawny garbage-munchers in their back yards wolves.
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Post by noblemanofreason on Dec 21, 2010 9:21:40 GMT
Just to quickly say that I like the phoenix theory, as it adds a new twist to the inheritance theory. If it is the case, I want to see Annie transform into a phoenix at one point or another, possibly as a disguise? For that matter, I wonder what a phoenix looks like in this universe.
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Post by basser on Dec 21, 2010 12:43:43 GMT
I wonder what a phoenix looks like in this universe. Like a pink-haired girl.
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Post by ethanblack on Dec 21, 2010 13:23:28 GMT
This could easily be the model too... (dingo on left, coyote on right) I am of the oppion that the skull in the last panel is neither of these, but is in fact the skull of the fox. The last panel has a cranium rounder and less tapered than that of a Coyote, more akin to a Fox. Renard, perhaps.
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Post by Kennedy on Dec 21, 2010 14:46:27 GMT
I'd be surprised if the phoenix theory turned out to be incorrect, really. It makes too much sense.
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Post by jayne on Dec 21, 2010 15:47:38 GMT
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Post by noblemanofreason on Dec 21, 2010 16:23:09 GMT
I have just realised. If Annie is a descendant of a phoenix, then that means she is at least, part bird. We also know that Kat has a fetish for birds...
All the Annie/Kat shippers are going to have a field day if this turns out to be true.
Edit: A request for fanart. Annie with phoenix motif, or Annie transforming into or as a phoenix. I would do it myself, but I cannot draw if my life depended on it.
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Post by 0o0f on Dec 21, 2010 16:32:17 GMT
Hah. It would be interesting to see Kat's reaction to that if it was true.
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Post by legion on Dec 21, 2010 16:45:54 GMT
Yeah; wolf and coyote skulls can be confused, but not fox skulls; true foxes (tribe vulpini, genus vulpes) are more distantly related to wolves (tribe canini, genus canis) than coyotes (also tribe canini and genus canis) are.
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arden
New Member
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Post by arden on Dec 21, 2010 19:46:34 GMT
Theoryin' it up.
I say that Surma 'made a deal with the devil' with Coyote, when she was in love with Eggy. Of course the curse was a double-edged sword, and since she left Eggy for Anthony, part of that 'deal,' was broken, and that Antimony would be a cancer as a result.
'proof:' we know that Coyote's gifts tend to come out perversed, even if the power is granted. (body-swapping kills the original host, yser's gains a new body but his old one deteriorates, etc)
Coyote assumed that Elgamore was her father because that's the arrangement he remembered, and he believes Surma's dead immediately after that's explained.
Though at the same time he didn't flinch or mention 'to be expected' or anything that would've seemed enigmatic at the time, so it's just spitballin'
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Post by jayne on Dec 21, 2010 20:08:16 GMT
It can't be a Coyote-gift-screwup because everyone knew about it before it happened. No one knows how Coyote's gifts will backfire until after they do.
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Post by jayne on Dec 21, 2010 20:29:53 GMT
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Post by digikitty on Dec 21, 2010 20:42:27 GMT
And I'm not seeing how Tony's look is directing any emotion towards Annie, let alone anger. I agree. He doesn't look angry, just unhappy. And aside from Anthony's face, the things that interest me most about this page are his hands in the fourth and fifth panels. When people (well, the people I know) are angry, they react with their bodies -- they stamp their feet, swing their arms, clench their fists, hunch forward, etc. Anthony's hands are loose and his back is straight. He's not even moving fast, or his coat would be billowing. It looks like he just stood up and walked calmly out of the room. Antimony's expressions in those two panels look to me like leftover surprise from seeing him visibly upset, not worry that he's mad at her about something. It seems to me that he just didn't want Annie to see that he was upset/crying/ect. and perhaps decided to just walk away so that she wouldn't ask him what was wrong.
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Post by noblemanofreason on Dec 21, 2010 21:03:05 GMT
Coyote called Annie and Surma "humans". Would this negate the phoenix theory? Possibly. But when Coyote first saw Antimony (seen here www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=274), he assumed that she was Surma. Just because he is a god, doesn't mean he cannot make mistakes. Hell, he would be the first to admit it. Also, has he directly stated they were human? Not accusing you or anything, just cannot remember.
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Post by jayne on Dec 21, 2010 21:18:02 GMT
Coyote called Annie and Surma "humans". Would this negate the phoenix theory? Possibly. But when Coyote first saw Antimony (seen here www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=274), he assumed that she was Surma. Just because he is a god, doesn't mean he cannot make mistakes. Hell, he would be the first to admit it. Also, has he directly stated they were human? Not accusing you or anything, just cannot remember. It was on the next page (275) when he speaks of Surma's death, he mentions how short human lives are. Even so, Coyote does make mistakes and usually laughs them off. "Oopsie" A while ago, I asked Tom if Coyote would recognize a bird that had once been human but that had taken the test and I THINK he said Coyote would know that...
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Post by noblemanofreason on Dec 21, 2010 21:38:15 GMT
It was on the next page (275) when he speaks of Surma's death, he mentions how short human lives are. Even so, Coyote does make mistakes and usually laughs them off. "Oopsie" A while ago, I asked Tom if Coyote would recognize a bird that had once been human but that had taken the test and I THINK he said Coyote would know that... A couple of points. Firstly, Annie's ancestor who was a phoenix, according to the theory, wouldn't need to come from the forest, or taken the test for that matter (as mentioned above, some phoenix legends tell that it was able to shape shift into a human). Secondly, even if Coyote knew the ancestor, he may recognize it in another form, but would he recognize a descendant? Which leads to the final point. Annie and Surma may indeed be human, but could inherit the phoenix cycle of rebirth. We already know its possible for the inhabitants of the forest to have human ancestors (here www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=494), why not vice versa. The only problem for the theory I see is why Surma didn't die in child birth (as in the legend the adult would die, and the chick would rise from the ashes), although this could be explained away by Anthony finding a way to temporarily hold back Surma.
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