|
Post by jayne on Nov 3, 2010 14:59:32 GMT
|
|
|
Post by legion on Nov 3, 2010 15:59:50 GMT
The rest of the chapter will be about Rey having too much free time and pranking people in the Court.
|
|
|
Post by blahzor on Nov 3, 2010 16:14:31 GMT
99% chance she's storing away Rey for the trip b/c of her encounter with Jeanne
|
|
|
Post by evilanagram on Nov 3, 2010 17:42:41 GMT
Is it just me, or do I detect a hint of bitterness in Anja towards the court and its decisions? I don't see it. She's smiling too pleasantly when talking about the Court's decision to be bitter about it.
|
|
Sadie
Full Member
I eat food and sleep in a horizontal position.
Posts: 146
|
Post by Sadie on Nov 3, 2010 18:56:34 GMT
not really. coyote knows better than to make a demigod out of a genocidal maniac. Oh, I wasn't suggesting it was a bad idea not to give him powers, just that Coyote completely ignores him ( "forever young and healthy"), a fact which Annie seems to be thinking about in Panel 3. What I find interesting about that part is that a few page later, Coyote has Ysegrin give Annie a ride leading to a moment of understanding between them. He then pretty much tells Annie that he planned all the whole meeting to show her the three sides of Ysegrin and encourages her to remember the real one. Coyote seems far too in-tune with who Ysegrin is, how he operates, and his relationship with Coyote's other allies/interests/potential victims for someone he "ignores completely". I think it's really naive of the Court to believe that a trickster-god wouldn't use everyone and thing around him to their fullest extent to further his own goals. The problem is knowing what those goals are.
|
|
spheney
New Member
Some say he stole Renard's body and lost it to coyote in a poker game, we know he's called the stig
Posts: 19
|
Post by spheney on Nov 3, 2010 20:31:31 GMT
There is a possibility that this was brought up in the previous thread, but I am not willing to wade through 10 pages of straw-grasping conclusions. Is it just me or could that be the machine/computer that Anja and Donald built? It seems rather fitting with their currant conversation.
|
|
percival
Full Member
there's a storm a-brewin'
Posts: 119
|
Post by percival on Nov 3, 2010 20:46:39 GMT
Poor Annie. She just found out her mom is a deceiver, and Anja and Kat are being so nonchalant about it ("we'll get something to eat!"). No wonder Annie looks upset in panel 7. I doubt she'll run off and tell Renard, but I could see her sneaking him out with her despite the Court's command.
|
|
|
Post by fjodor on Nov 3, 2010 20:53:50 GMT
When Anja says "we thought you should know", who are "we"?
Personally I think Rey is in Annie's bag. It is drawn very deliberately on the previous page. Can't wait to see his reaction.
|
|
|
Post by jayne on Nov 3, 2010 20:58:00 GMT
When Anja says " we thought you should know", who are " we"? Personally I think Rey is in Annie's bag. It is drawn very deliberately on the previous page. Can't wait to see his reaction. I'd guess it means Donald and Anja.
|
|
|
Post by elppa284 on Nov 4, 2010 3:11:43 GMT
I can't imagine Annie going off to blurt everything out to Renard, but I can't imagine her not telling him either-in fact I'm sure she'll tell him....:/ The question's how.....or maybe fjodor's right and he's in Annie's bag-if that's so, then did Annie put him there....or did he sneak in there? Depending, it could determine his reaction to this news....if it is news to him at all.
|
|
|
Post by Fhqwhgads on Nov 4, 2010 3:16:43 GMT
When Anja says " we thought you should know", who are " we"? Personally I think Rey is in Annie's bag. It is drawn very deliberately on the previous page. Can't wait to see his reaction. I like this idea. Rey should know but that would kinda let Annie off the hook disobeying a direct order.
|
|
|
Post by djublonskopf on Nov 4, 2010 4:22:53 GMT
but I think even she might be hesitant to tell Reynardine that the one good thing he knew from the court was a total lie and a deliberate act to lock him in the court. Well, there's always the test. The Court may have just been expecting him to give up his fox body to become human. Then there's no "locking him up", just welcoming as a new friend to the Court. Him killing and possessing an existing human would have been a very unpleasant surprise. Suddenly it's less "welcoming" and more "jailing".
|
|
|
Post by evilanagram on Nov 4, 2010 8:17:57 GMT
What I find interesting about that part is that a few page later, Coyote has Ysegrin give Annie a ride leading to a moment of understanding between them. He then pretty much tells Annie that he planned all the whole meeting to show her the three sides of Ysegrin and encourages her to remember the real one. Coyote seems far too in-tune with who Ysegrin is, how he operates, and his relationship with Coyote's other allies/interests/potential victims for someone he "ignores completely". I think it's really naive of the Court to believe that a trickster-god wouldn't use everyone and thing around him to their fullest extent to further his own goals. The problem is knowing what those goals are. Coyote definitely doesn't completely ignore Ysengrin, but it makes sense that Coyote wouldn't want to empower him as much. The character in folklore he's based off of was an antagonist to Renard and often played the straight man. He'd be no fun if he had tons of powers; he'd just be better at being violent.
|
|
|
Post by Goatmon on Nov 4, 2010 8:43:18 GMT
What I find interesting about that part is that a few page later, Coyote has Ysegrin give Annie a ride leading to a moment of understanding between them. He then pretty much tells Annie that he planned all the whole meeting to show her the three sides of Ysegrin and encourages her to remember the real one. Coyote seems far too in-tune with who Ysegrin is, how he operates, and his relationship with Coyote's other allies/interests/potential victims for someone he "ignores completely". I think it's really naive of the Court to believe that a trickster-god wouldn't use everyone and thing around him to their fullest extent to further his own goals. The problem is knowing what those goals are. Coyote definitely doesn't completely ignore Ysengrin, but it makes sense that Coyote wouldn't want to empower him as much. The character in folklore he's based off of was an antagonist to Renard and often played the straight man. He'd be no fun if he had tons of powers; he'd just be better at being violent. Mostly I imagine it's because Ysengrin is generally more predictable and less intruiging. He is petty and obsessive in his aggressive dealings against the humans, which I imagine is rather boring for an entity like Coyote. I wager he likes Renard more because it is more difficult to predict how he reacts to various situations. Or something.
|
|
|
Post by q3 on Nov 4, 2010 13:26:05 GMT
Coyote seems far too in-tune with who Ysegrin is, how he operates, and his relationship with Coyote's other allies/interests/potential victims for someone he "ignores completely". I don't know about that; Coyote has a habit of making pronouncements regarding Ysengrin's character that are directly contradicted by the available evidence. He says that Ysengrin is very impatient, except that we've seen him take actions that would not bear fruit for several months at least three times (planting the seed in robot's arm; burying the TicToc; dropping seeds at the Court), which suggests that he can be very patient. Similarly, he says that Ysengrin is easily riled, but it's then shown that Ysengrin's attack was merely a distraction so that he could drop the seeds, which is something that he would have had to plan ahead of time rather than think up while in the middle of a berserker rage. Coyote certainly appears to think that he has Mr. Wolf Tree all figured out, but there is a fair amount of evidence to the contrary.
|
|
|
Post by jayne on Nov 4, 2010 14:11:05 GMT
Coyote seems to have affection for both Reynard and Ysegrin but he respects Reynard... he treats Ysegrin more like a bratty child.
|
|
yhbc
Junior Member
Posts: 83
|
Post by yhbc on Nov 4, 2010 14:24:08 GMT
This definitely falls into wild spec territory, and I never do this, but literally in the shower this morning I had a vision of what Friday's strip could/should be:
Panels 1-3: establishing shots; Annie heads back to her room, but she is clearly distracted, thinking about something else.
Panel 4: Now in her room, Annie sees Reynardine, in doll form, but he does not see her (reading some book or doing something else).
Panel 5, and maybe 6 as well: Annie starts toward Reynardine, but thinks better of it. She takes out her blinker stone and enters the aether instead.
Panel 6, or penultimate Panel: In the aether, Renard (in fox form) hears Annie calling him. [glow=red,2,300]"Renard."[/glow] Panel 7, or final Panel: Aether-Renard looks up to see Aether-Annie standing before him - but she appears older, almost like Surma - and she has the Fire-Spike "crown" above her head. Aether-Annie: [glow=red,2,300]"We need to talk."[/glow]
|
|
monte
Junior Member
Posts: 66
|
Post by monte on Nov 4, 2010 14:36:11 GMT
I don't know about that. She's not the most romantically sensitive gal, but I think even she might be hesitant to tell Reynardine that the one good thing he knew from the court was a total lie and a deliberate act to lock him in the court. That's not necessarily true at all. Anja said they wanted to lure Reynard to the court; this does not at all say that the intention was to lock up Reynard when he got there... however after Reynard killed someone, THAT would change any original intention they had. Though we really don't know how Annie will use this new found info... the right thing would be to tell Reynard, but when it comes down to it, Annie has also resisted telling Reynard about his body in the forest
|
|
|
Post by Rex on Nov 4, 2010 15:00:19 GMT
I see some folks have pointed out that Annie in panel 3 may be thinking back to her last visit where Coyote had her learn and consider all three sides to Ysengrin. Is it possible that she's also remembering Coyote's advice from Chapter 14 ("You cannot trust the people of this place")? She already has some issues with trusting/obeying adults, so I'm certain that comment from him has her wary of anything coming from Court employees. Even her best friend's parents and her mother's childhood friends.
|
|
|
Post by jayne on Nov 4, 2010 15:46:30 GMT
Its odd that the people Annie should be able to trust... she doesn't really... but she seems to trust the ultimate trickster and his cousin.
|
|
|
Post by scyllarus on Nov 4, 2010 16:49:17 GMT
something interesting to me: everyone seems to feel like coyote is oblivious to things, or isn't involved in plot at all. he may always tell the truth...but the truth is somewhat subjective. he isn't omniscient, he can only tell the truth he knows, which may not be the truth at all. ysengrin, for example - he doesn't show himself to be entirely raging and insane, as has been stated earlier - but coyote probably sees him that way, that ysengrin is nothing more than an enraged brute.
i'm wondering more and more what coyote's real objectives are. why did he show annie renard's body? there's little reason except, hey, you should totally bring him back over here (after all, coyote's kidnapping didn't work). but why would coyote want renard back? why did he show her ysengrin, and was he really unaware of his words? he seems friendly and pretty much happy-go-lucky, but everything he does seems to have something manipulative behind it.
for that matter..."you cannot trust the people of this place" is not the same as "you should not trust the people of this place." annie didn't/doesn't trust the court, coyote may just be stating that fact.
|
|
|
Post by Rex on Nov 4, 2010 17:04:42 GMT
Well Jones did say that Coyote is no liar, so I can see why she'd trust him. That said, I think it might be a bit of Annie's independence combining with a poor view of the court (thanks to things like the Diego recording and Jeanne's memory dump). Have we had a situation where the Court is portrayed in a positive light and amused/impressed her?
I'd be less than trusting of an institution if most of what I knew of them was negative.
Scyllarus, I don't know about that. So far Coyote's advice so far has been supported by several events Annie has found out about, one of which involves her own mother.
|
|
Sadie
Full Member
I eat food and sleep in a horizontal position.
Posts: 146
|
Post by Sadie on Nov 4, 2010 17:23:12 GMT
I don't know about that; Coyote has a habit of making pronouncements regarding Ysengrin's character that are directly contradicted by the available evidence. He says that Ysengrin is very impatient, except that we've seen him take actions that would not bear fruit for several months at least three times (planting the seed in robot's arm; burying the TicToc; dropping seeds at the Court), which suggests that he can be very patient. Similarly, he says that Ysengrin is easily riled, but it's then shown that Ysengrin's attack was merely a distraction so that he could drop the seeds, which is something that he would have had to plan ahead of time rather than think up while in the middle of a berserker rage. Coyote certainly appears to think that he has Mr. Wolf Tree all figured out, but there is a fair amount of evidence to the contrary. I totally see what you're getting at, the only problem with the Court meeting scene is that we, the readers, don't fully know who knows what. Is Coyote aware that Ysengrin was over-reacting for the sake of a distraction? If he wasn't - then you're right, he may just view Ysengrin as a bit of a stuffed shirt who goes into raging fits at the smallest things. On the other hand, what if Coyote did know about the seed plan? After all, why would Ysengrin do it without Coyote's knowledge? Coyote's his boss, after all, and someone he trusts and cares for. In that light, Coyote's flippant, slightly demeaning comments take a different meaning; it's ALL a show to mislead the Court. It wasn't exactly lying, either. Ysengrin IS impatient -- when dealing with humans that he hates. Ysengrin IS easily riled up -- by humans doing stuff that makes him angry. Was he genuinely riled up by Annie slapping Coyote's rear end? Maybe not. But Coyote didn't say "Ysegrin is easily riled up by spankies" (granted, Tom did, but that doesn't really count), he just said "Ysegrin is easily riled up". Another thing to consider is that while Ysengrin was the instigator of 1) planting a seed in Robot and using him to attempt to steal Reynardine 2) burying the Tictoc so that it started to grow and give them the excuse to enter and accuse the Court, and 3) dropping the seeds in the Court, how do we know if he's the one who actually came up with those plans? Ysengrin has no reason to want to Renard back except to please Coyote. Does he love Coyote enough to conceive and initiate plans to get back Renard on his own, or was he acting entirely on Coyote's behest? It's interesting to re-read through the earlier chapters where the Wood seems much more insidious and inherently evil and comparing them to the recent chapters where the Court seems the more evil, untrustworthy side. It really makes me question Coyote's charming and friendly behavior with Annie in light of how close earlier schemes to steal Reynardine came to ending in her death.
|
|
|
Post by scyllarus on Nov 4, 2010 17:24:31 GMT
i'm not saying that annie's wrong to feel negative toward the court, but it's a bit silly to think coyote is nothing but a playful, harmless trickster who just wants to have a summer home in gillitie woods. have we seen anything good about him, either? his gifts often have terrible consequences, whether he wills them to or not, and he's got a nasty, nasty sense of humor (shoving her toward ysengrin while he's "naked" and refusing to acknowledge what he did, for one). he's no better than the court, the court just happens to have more people with less power/knowledge and therefore a much higher chance of making mistakes.
we keep seeing the court as one entity, with one mind, who should know better. in reality, the court is/was probably as argumentative as we are here. things like diego's more-or-less murder of jeanne were probably done because, let's face it, they had a problem (there were MUCH more powerful creatures on the other side of the rift, and they felt extremely vulnerable) and the expert said that it was the only solution. it's not as if they had another court technician who could speak up and go "hey, we don't need to sacrifice anyone, we can just do x, y, and z."
i think that was the entire point with paz, kat, and the pigeon. kat suddenly saw the court as nothing but a huge, faceless, looming institution who crushed anyone in its way. it stopped being her parents and her parents' friends, or worse, they became that demonic institution. paz might be naive to think her little work makes any real difference, but it brings back the idea that each person in the institution isn't thinking "oh, how can i become uber-powerful and kill everything," it's "how can i make life better for these people around me?"
|
|
|
Post by strangebloke on Nov 4, 2010 19:50:32 GMT
www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=117anyone forgetting this? Reynardine Does NOT want to go back to the forest. He is NOT on good terms with Ysengrin. Also, Eglamore's reaction has new meaning. Which really makes sense. Ysengrin is an arrogant, brutal, serious wolf who hates all of humanity. Reynardine is an unpretentious, benevolent and quick-witted fox who loves humanity in general. Coyote gives people power out of a pragmatic motivation, but he also does it because its fun. Ysengrin's constant attacks and intrigues are not interesting to Coyote. They are not his style. Reynardine's tricks, however, are exactly what he likes. I wouldn't even be surprised if Coyote intentionally puts flaws into his gifts just for lols. HAHAHA! Ysengrin is a shaky old man! Reynardine is killing people he loves! Most people seem to have such a hard time understanding why the court fears Reynard so. After all, he is such a nice guy! Who killed the Court dragon! and others! Almost including Annie! Not that I really think Reynardine is evil. The court drove him to a lot of those things that he did. Nonetheless, if this is the damage he causes with just one gift, imagine what would happen if he had more.
|
|
|
Post by fjodor on Nov 4, 2010 20:22:50 GMT
Looking at that link, it just occurred to me that Coyote is going through a lot of trouble to get Rey back. I think it is safe to say that Robot was 'changed' to go get Rey back (circumstantial evidence counts too, right?), then Coyote makes a personal visit trying to persuade him to come back, and later he tries to get Annie to make Rey return. And now it seems that the Court is not so much focused on killing Rey, they primarily want to keep him away from the Forest. Apart from that, Coyote gave Yse power over all the trees. Looking at how much he can do with his tree-body, that is very much power, I'd say.
|
|
|
Post by jayne on Nov 4, 2010 21:31:27 GMT
In this one, Rey looks really angry about seeing a shadowman... I thought he was upset because he recognized Ysegrin's voice but he's looking right at the shadowman, not the robot.
|
|
|
Post by TBeholder on Nov 4, 2010 22:10:55 GMT
The panel #7 somehow makes aaroncampbell's guess feel more plausible. He still doesn't know? That's monstrous. Telling him would be, too. Then again, we still don't know it all either. The panel #3 makes me smile. Looked much the same way after #2. ;D I'm afraid, Annie's opinion of Anja as a well of quality information kind of cityfaced into litterbox. But a more interesting question is whether it's: 1) correct and the circumstances did change, 2) miscommunication or 3) Surma - obviously the prime source of news about the Wood is the Medium who walks there at will - was an awful judge of character not only with Renard?.. I have a feeling that Annie is going off to tell Reynardine now. I have a feeling that Annie is going off to ask Reynardine now. Only unsure what exactly. Isn't...Rey still bound to Annie's will? I mean, can he even hurt anyone now without her permission? True. But? He's a great trickster. Jack's demon trap had the side-effect of breaking the contract of ownership, He was bound because he jumped into her doll. Now he repeated this. it's possible that Anja is telling Annie specifically in the hope that she'll do something about it. Personally, I think she just respects Annie enough to give her a reason for why Rey must stay behind apart from, "We told you so, now get in the car." That is, Anja disagreed with some motion and indirectly warned Antimony to keep eyes open? Plausible, but not necessary, yes. I'd guess it means Donald and Anja. Probably - in the next phrase she refers to the Court as "they".
|
|
|
Post by todd on Nov 4, 2010 22:16:52 GMT
One thought on Coyote calling Ysengrin impatient: at the time that he says it, he (Coyote) had been letting (or even encouraging) the meeting's attention to drift from the whole point (Ysengrin's protest about the incident at the bridge and its aftermath) to talk about almost everything else, especially himself. Ysengrin would have been naturally annoyed, no matter how patient or impatient he was, with Coyote derailing the proceedings to talk about creation myths that he was involved with - and it's just like Coyote to comment on Ysengrin's annoyance in such a way to make the blame appear on the wolf rather than on himself.
On the Court's decision to kill Jeanne: I think that nobody brought up an alternate solution since Diego was working hard to convince everyone that Jeanne's death was the only possible solution. If the Founders decide that it isn't necessary, that they can find some other way to prevent the forest-folk from slaughtering them all, then his hopes of getting revenge on Jeanne for rejecting him, in a manner that he could get away with (convincing the other Founders to work with him, clothing it in the guise of "necessity of state" rather than petty anger), go out the window.
|
|
|
Post by q3 on Nov 5, 2010 2:13:43 GMT
On the other hand, what if Coyote did know about the seed plan? After all, why would Ysengrin do it without Coyote's knowledge? Coyote's his boss, after all, and someone he trusts and cares for. That's definitely a possibility - but consider, who was more likely to be fooled by the ruse? The Court, who had numerous individuals there keeping a wary eye on both Coyote and Ysengrin - including the incredibly perceptive Jones? Or Coyote, who "barely even recognizes [Ysengrin's] existence" according to Anya, and who repeatedly makes disparaging or sarcastic remarks about Ysengrin - both in private and even to his face? We know for a fact that the Court was not fooled - Jones even said it was "fairly transparent". Yet so far we've seen no indication that Coyote has any idea what really happened at that meeting. If the seeds that were dropped were similar to the one planted in Robot, it would be several months before they took effect, several months in which the Court - but not Coyote - would be able to search the meeting room and discover them. And at least part of Ysengrin's planning for the meeting seems to have been done with the intention of keeping Coyote in the dark - he ate the Suicide Fairies, probably in part because he was hungry but also likely because they had witnessed him burying the TicToc. Killing the fairies sent them straight to the Court, where they could reveal what happened - letting them live might have led them to make that revelation to Coyote instead. Thus, killing the fairies makes it more likely that the Court would find out about the ruse and less likely that Coyote would find out. This is all speculation at this point, obviously, but if Ysengrin intended to fool Coyote rather than the Court with his ruse, then his actions can be explained as an effort to get the seeds to the Court without Coyote finding out. He took over Robot and sent him over the bridge not to steal Renard (how could he or Coyote possibly have known Renard would even show up? All they knew was that he had been captured), but rather to provoke an incident that could lead to a meeting. Abducting Renard wasn't the goal; his appearance was merely a happy coincidence that made a provocation much easier to instigate. Planting the TicToc provided another opportunity to demand a meeting. The meeting would then provide Ysengrin with the opportunity to give the seeds to the Court without Coyote finding out. (For what purpose? My best conjecture is in hopes that the Court would study them and possibly find a cure for his shakes. Remember, Ysengrin only received his power from Coyote recently, in the years since the last meeting with the Court.) Of course, it's possible that dropping the seeds was Coyote's idea, or done with Coyote's permission, but I don't think we've seen any evidence that that was the case.
|
|