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Post by todd on Nov 1, 2010 22:35:34 GMT
Today's page (revealing that Surma pretended to be in love with Reynardine as bait for a trap) shows another example of the Court's faculty engaging in morally dubious behavior because of their troubles with Gillitie Wood (an earlier example being the case of Jeanne). And thinking over it has led to my pondering a larger question.
The reason why the Court is facing these troubles, as far as we can tell, is because it's next door to Gillitie Wood, which is on poor terms with the Court for various reasons, including attempts by the Court's inhabitants to "tame" its residents and the forest-folk's alarm at the Court's experiments with the ether. Its location is a lot of the trouble. But we know that there's a lot more to the world in this story than just the Court and the Wood - the Court is not the sole island of humanity in the middle of a forest that covers the entire planet. So the inhabitants of Gunnerkrigg could go somewhere else; they don't have to stay at the Court.
Why do they remain? I don't think it's because of the trouble that the Founders were fleeing; that has to be over by now, and even if the Founders were wanted for something like rebellion, Sir Young and the rest are long since dead and their descendants would not be facing charges for their ancestors' offenses. So the most likely reason is to allow the people of the Court to continue delving into the etheric world; presumably Gillitie Wood and its environs are the only place where they can investigate the Bismuth Seed.
But, whatever discoveries they're making, is it worth the cost? So far, the Court's policies have led to four violent deaths (Jeanne, her lover, the young man whom Reynardine possessed, and Sivo - since the Court's getting Surma to lead Reynardine on resulted in his possession powers, which he had refused from Coyote until then, the Court is partly responsible for his victims). Furthermore, the experiments themselves, as in the case of the power station, have led to more alarming incidents. Whatever the appeal of the things that the Court is seeking to discover, is it worth the cost, including the acts of murder and deceit that the Court faculty has been stooping to? After all, if they simply left the Court and went back to the outside world, they wouldn't need to engage in those schemes to counter the Wood's attacks.
Maybe it's too late for them to simply do that, let Ysengrin and the other forest-folk who agree with him demolish an abandoned Court in the style of the Ents destroying Isengard, and go back to the outside world, contenting themselves with smaller and less dangerous goals. But I wonder whether that wouldn't be the better thing to do than stay there, endangering themselves and their children all because of a thirst for knowledge (a knowledge that humans may not be meant to have).
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Post by cannedbreadmaker on Nov 1, 2010 23:08:22 GMT
Of course the troubles in the outside world no longer remain, the Court recruits students from the outside world.
Why would you abandon your large city/settlement just because of a handful of troublesome demigods whom you've already made arrangements with? Yes what they did in the past was unnecessary and simply wrong, but that is no reason to abandon what is established.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Nov 2, 2010 17:43:32 GMT
I am not sure the reasons the humans first took refuge in the Wood are completely gone. Could the people who are living openly with magic or etheric talents in the Court do so in the regular world?
We haven't really seen much of the outside world in the comic. We do know George's dad won a psychic challenge (presumably in the muggle realm) but perhaps she's going to school in the Court to get away from the attention. What would happen to Gamma and Zimmy if they were still wandering the streets of Birmingham? The Court learned of them eventually; even if Zimmy can erase people's memories word would eventually get out about what she's capable of. Even assuming the Court sees Zimmy as nothing but a lab rat she is at least left mostly alone. Would Anja be able to use magic and work on robotics freely elsewhere or would she be compelled to work on defense projects in the national interest?
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Post by fjodor on Nov 2, 2010 20:33:42 GMT
They are trying to become god, or at least become as powerful as god. If this were real life, I think it is fair to say that governments and multinationals would not need to think twice to sacrifice the lives of millions to acquire that sort of power.
So yeah, according to modern civilised standards, it is definately worth the cost.
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Post by scyllarus on Nov 2, 2010 21:08:27 GMT
i think it's the etheric stuff, myself.
if we accept the idea that gillitie woods is a potent source of etheric energy, why in the love of god would the court, which seems to be attempting to harness this energy, want to move? i think the split went something a bit more like this:
humans move to gillitie, possibly with some people who have unusual powers, due to issues outside the woods. they realize they could harness the etherium to sustain their buildings and lifestyles. the animals/denizens of the forest are alarmed at this idea, since it would very likely involve research on the creatures themselves and modifications of the forest. things escalate, and by the time coyote, renard, and ysengrin arrive, things are rather bad with the wood's folk fighting for their traditional lifestyles and leaving the etherium alone and the humans wanting to use it more...progressively.
so coyote then creates the ravine and the annan waters, and agrees to leave the court alone.
the humans may be trying to become more powerful, that's just what people do, but they're trying to do it through etheric means. this probably isn't particularly popular or a good idea to do in the outside world...to be honest, though, we don't know what coyote meant by "becoming god." it could mean anything from boundless offensive power to the ability to bestow others with etheric abilities to the standard eternal life.
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Post by hal9000 on Nov 2, 2010 21:19:49 GMT
They are trying to become god, or at least become as powerful as god. If this were real life, I think it is fair to say that governments and multinationals would not need to think twice to sacrifice the lives of millions to acquire that sort of power. So yeah, according to modern civilised standards, it is definately worth the cost. It's worth the cost to the bastards perpetrating it, you mean. For everyone else (especially the people getting sacrificed), well, probably not. Not to mention that we have no idea how many others the court has killed or maimed in order to further their goals (whatever those are). |
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Post by fjodor on Nov 2, 2010 22:05:39 GMT
It's worth the cost to the bastards perpetrating it, you mean. Yup. It's the way it goes. Nothing to be proud of but still our daily reality. |
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Post by Mezzaphor on Nov 3, 2010 1:12:06 GMT
We haven't really seen much of the outside world in the comic. , Batman, The X-Files, Orbital, Prodigy, Sparklehorse, Metal Gear Solid, The Goonies, and Metroid all exist in the outside world, so it can't be too different from ours. On the other hand, Tom did say that the Queen is not Elizabeth II, so it's not exactly the same as ours, either. Not to mention that we have no idea how many others the court has killed or maimed in order to further their goals (whatever those are). Could be a million. Could be zero. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Nov 3, 2010 5:07:26 GMT
We haven't really seen much of the outside world in the comic. , Batman, The X-Files, Orbital, Prodigy, Sparklehorse, Metal Gear Solid, The Goonies, and Metroid all exist in the outside world, so it can't be too different from ours. On the other hand, Tom did say that the Queen is not Elizabeth II, so it's not exactly the same as ours, either. Short response: I'm not sure how much similarity we can infer because of the pop culture references; they could exist separate from our own cultural context. Long response: My expectation is that Mr. Siddell has borrowed big chunks of real history to flesh out the Gunnerkrigg Universe. You're right that the succession is different in the Gunnerverse and if the succession is different then British history is different; that in itself might mean world history is very different overall, all depending on when/where changes were made. Yet it doesn't rule out the possibility that things are very similar in other ways. That leaves space for pop culture references to be dropped in whenever the mood strikes the artist/author but also doesn't rule out huge bizarre differences. In the Gunnerverse Hellboy might be the undisputed ruler of Central America and not a comic/movie character. So, what do we know? What we've seen of Good Hope and Birmingham didn't sound alarm bells; though Surma's hospital room did look unusual it can be explained by Anthony having lots of pull at the hospital. I believe it's been Formspring'd that there are other magical places like Gunnerkrigg Court (hidden?) around the world, and we do know that the Court has an arrangement with foreign powers to be left alone. They bring people with interesting talents to the Court. We have heard that there are many students around the Court with special abilities. Yet, we have seen people within the Court who use magic or etheric abilities get static; "weirdos" do seem to be seperated into houses. People at Court don't like to see magic being openly used. I think that leads us to believe that some students with etheric talents are "in the closet" because of discrimination. It may not be institutional discrimination, particularly considering the little we know about the Court's founding being perhaps a flight from humanity itself, but to some degree intolerance appears to exist. The assumption that there's a higher percentage of etherically gifted folk in the Court than outside leads me to believe that discrimination is worse in the outside world. How much worse I have no idea. To add an extra layer of complexity it would probably vary greatly from place to place and with cultural context. Anja might be worshiped as a god or revered as a prophet or shrine maiden in some places, stoned or burned alive elsewhere, denied a seat in the front of a bus someplace else. However, if I may connect this all back to my original point, at the Court she can lead something like a normal life. That may be a big reason to consider the Court someplace valuable. |
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Post by jayne on Nov 3, 2010 10:57:53 GMT
We haven't really seen much of the outside world in the comic. , Batman, The X-Files, Orbital, Prodigy, Sparklehorse, Metal Gear Solid, The Goonies, and Metroid all exist in the outside world, so it can't be too different from ours. On the other hand, Tom did say that the Queen is not Elizabeth II, so it's not exactly the same as ours, either. Not to mention that we have no idea how many others the court has killed or maimed in order to further their goals (whatever those are). Could be a million. Could be zero. I assumed Tom meant that it wasn't Queen Elizabeth who knighted Eglamore but some other Queen of something else... and Elizabeth is still in England. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Nov 3, 2010 17:51:25 GMT
I assumed Tom meant that it wasn't Queen Elizabeth who knighted Eglamore but some other Queen of something else... and Elizabeth is still in England. It was declared in the old Questions to Tom #2 thread here in response to a question posed by yours truly. |
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Post by jayne on Nov 3, 2010 18:02:44 GMT
I assumed Tom meant that it wasn't Queen Elizabeth who knighted Eglamore but some other Queen of something else... and Elizabeth is still in England. It was declared in the old Questions to Tom #2 thread here in response to a question posed by yours truly. So, its a fictional Queen of England? Is GC in England? |
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Post by cannedbreadmaker on Nov 3, 2010 21:23:48 GMT
It was declared in the old Questions to Tom #2 thread here in response to a question posed by yours truly. So, its a fictional Queen of England? Is GC in England? Zimmy came from Birmingham, a city in England. Annie speaks with a "watered-down Barnsley accent", Barnsley is a city in England. Eglamore was knighted by a fictional Queen of England... |
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Post by jayne on Nov 3, 2010 22:09:47 GMT
So, its a fictional Queen of England? Is GC in England? Zimmy came from Birmingham, a city in England. Annie speaks with a "watered-down Barnsley accent", Barnsley is a city in England. Eglamore was knighted by a fictional Queen of England... I read it as Russian. And Jeanne is French. |
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Post by hal9000 on Nov 3, 2010 22:38:58 GMT
So, its a fictional Queen of England? Is GC in England? Zimmy came from Birmingham, a city in England. Annie speaks with a "watered-down Barnsley accent", Barnsley is a city in England. Eglamore was knighted by a fictional Queen of England... FYI England ⊂ Britain ⊂ the UK, to use set notation. |
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Post by jayne on Nov 3, 2010 22:41:31 GMT
Zimmy came from Birmingham, a city in England. Annie speaks with a "watered-down Barnsley accent", Barnsley is a city in England. Eglamore was knighted by a fictional Queen of England... FYI England ⊂ Britain ⊂ the UK, to use set notation. Yeah... I'm a geek... I got really happy to think of this in set notation... I had a nice little Venn diagram in my head and everything! ;D |
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Post by cannedbreadmaker on Nov 4, 2010 1:22:25 GMT
Zimmy came from Birmingham, a city in England. Annie speaks with a "watered-down Barnsley accent", Barnsley is a city in England. Eglamore was knighted by a fictional Queen of England... FYI England ⊂ Britain ⊂ the UK, to use set notation. What of it?... |
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Post by hal9000 on Nov 4, 2010 2:03:02 GMT
FYI England ⊂ Britain ⊂ the UK, to use set notation. What of it?... Just saying, to make sure everyone is clear about the difference between them. |
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Post by Mezzaphor on Nov 4, 2010 3:22:43 GMT
Considering she's a Valkyrie, I think it's safe to assume she has a Norse accent. As for where Gunnerkrigg itself is, Tom has said that it's in the UK, but nothing more specific. The little bit of further evidence seems to be contradictory. The way Kat refers to her holiday in Scotland would seem to imply that the Court is not in Scotland. On the other hand, the Annan Waters are two degrees of reference removed* from the real-life River Annan, which is located in southern Scotland. *Tom borrowed the name from the folk song "Annan Waters"; the folk song is based on the real river. |
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Post by jayne on Nov 4, 2010 4:39:35 GMT
Considering she's a Valkyrie, I think it's safe to assume she has a Norse accent. As for where Gunnerkrigg itself is, Tom has said that it's in the UK, but nothing more specific. The little bit of further evidence seems to be contradictory. The way Kat refers to her holiday in Scotland would seem to imply that the Court is not in Scotland. On the other hand, the Annan Waters are two degrees of reference removed* from the real-life River Annan, which is located in southern Scotland. *Tom borrowed the name from the folk song "Annan Waters"; the folk song is based on the real river. She's a Valkyrie? When did we find out about that? |
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Post by Casey on Nov 4, 2010 4:59:47 GMT
Considering she's a Valkyrie, I think it's safe to assume she has a Norse accent. As for where Gunnerkrigg itself is, Tom has said that it's in the UK, but nothing more specific. The little bit of further evidence seems to be contradictory. The way Kat refers to her holiday in Scotland would seem to imply that the Court is not in Scotland. On the other hand, the Annan Waters are two degrees of reference removed* from the real-life River Annan, which is located in southern Scotland. *Tom borrowed the name from the folk song "Annan Waters"; the folk song is based on the real river. She's a Valkyrie? When did we find out about that? Brinnie is Brynhildr, valkyrie and daughter of Odin. I think we sometimes tend to forget how much back-story information is only found in online sources like these forums. Edit: BTW link: gunnerkrigg.wikia.com/wiki/Brinnie |
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Post by jayne on Nov 4, 2010 14:25:36 GMT
She's a Valkyrie? When did we find out about that? Brinnie is Brynhildr, valkyrie and daughter of Odin. I think we sometimes tend to forget how much back-story information is only found in online sources like these forums. Edit: BTW link: gunnerkrigg.wikia.com/wiki/BrinnieThanks! I wonder if she'll be featured at some point. |
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Post by fjodor on Nov 4, 2010 20:12:50 GMT
Thanks! I wonder if she'll be featured at some point. Must be. It was mentioned that Jones did not get along with her, so I think there's a plot line simmering there. And if Odin and other Norse mythical creatures enter the story, there are all sorts of interesting options for further story development: There's Fenrir for instance, the big wolf that would scare the living daylights out of Ysengrin. And the Valkyries functioned as psychopomps, so I am convinced she, and maybe her sisters will return. |
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Post by theweatherman on Nov 5, 2010 0:15:35 GMT
Before I start, I skipped a chuck of the second page cos I did. And I was tired.
Who says Rey doesn't know that Surma was playing him on? Maybe she did love Rey, but fearing what the court would do to him if she didn't restrain him earlier and safely (in theory), she led him into a trap, but felt horrible about it (as she should).
I think Renard already knows, and maybe the whole "I'll trap you so the court won't kill you" thing as well, perhaps (in his mind) proving her love for him once again.
And people go through worst betrayals and still love their partners.
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Post by blackmantha on Nov 5, 2010 19:16:16 GMT
@op: Worth the cost? Well, it's considered wrong to sacrifice lives for material gain, but the moral rules are not... logically consistent.
For every dangerous job on the world, each year something is paid for with lives. Humanity sacrifices ~3370 lives each day in traffic accidents just to move goods and people around easier. Compared to that, 4 lives lost over a span of at least a century would be a ridiculously low cost for anything that can be described as "godlike power".
But the moral rules aren't there to minimize loss of life directly. It's because no one wants to be to ruled by someone who lets them die whenever it's advantageous. Also, this avoids all the pitfalls in the "ends justify the means" philosophy; the slippery slopes, the unintended consequences, and the loss of goodwill.
So far the court's shady tactics have worked fine. The court hasn't grown into a tyranny, all victims are either dead or contained, and their dirty actions aren't widely known. But that might change.
All in all, I think it should be harder for the court to use people like that. Maybe use the robots to make it impossible to keep it such things under wraps for very long. It your tactics can't stand the light of day, you shouldn't be using them anyway.
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Post by todd on Nov 5, 2010 22:27:48 GMT
One further thought I had about the Court's "skeletons in the closet". We know that the inhabitants of Gillitie Wood gave the Founders refuge from whatever trouble had led to their entering the forest. That makes the Founders' attempts to "tame" the inhabitants of the forest all the worse - those "great beasts" were their hosts, and their act a violation of hospitality and display of ingratitude.
No wonder the forest-folk aren't too fond of the Court.
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Post by strangebloke on Nov 5, 2010 23:20:53 GMT
^^ Then again, what would coyote define as "taming"? inviting them to live in houses? asking wind spirits to turn windmills? Might not have been so bad.
With all due respect, OP, the inhabitants don't move because its their life, their community. Some of their ancestors were forest dwellers who passed the test. Could they really pick up and move? Could you successfully transport all of the robots? The massive research facilities? nope. impossible. unthinkable to live without those, for people like Anja and Donny, who have worked with them their whole life.
Coyote's remark about "man's attempt to become God" shouldn't be taken literally. He merely means that the court dwellers want to be "God" in the sense of living forever, understanding all, and capable of manipulating anything. He laughs at it because he already has those things.
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Post by todd on Nov 6, 2010 0:09:59 GMT
Yes, it probably is too late for them to leave (which may make the situation all the more tragic). But I still wonder if the chief reason for their staying was an almost Faustian hunger for uncovering the secrets of the etheric world - which has already led to one possession by a spider from another world, suggesting that such an enterprise is dangerous.
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Post by Mezzaphor on Nov 6, 2010 15:01:05 GMT
If the people are aware of the dangers and choose to study these subjects anyway, I don't see anything wrong with that.
It becomes a problem when innocent bystanders get exposed to the dangers. Which comes back to the issue that Court security seems quite lacking.
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Post by fjodor on Nov 6, 2010 15:07:57 GMT
He merely means that the court dwellers want to be "God" in the sense of living forever, understanding all, and capable of manipulating anything. I'd say that is taking it pretty seriously. |
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