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Post by menschenjaeger on Oct 27, 2010 13:17:11 GMT
I feel like a penny just dropped when I read this page.
What if...what if Antimony is...the daughter of Reynard and Surma? (I realize there is evidence against that in aplenty, but...well, in the history of fiction, an author has never, EVER tried to lead his audience down the wrong path. Ever!) Hence her possible role as the reconciler of the Court and the Forest?
Idle speculation.
EDIT: I feel I have to give a little bit of supporting evidence.
1) That doomed "young man" Reynard inhabited; Reynard can apparently change form somewhat even when inhabiting another body. Could he have made himself look like Surma's husband? Or even...gulp...Eglamore? Or perhaps their tryst happened while he was still a spirit, in which case I would think he would be equally capable of such a change.
2) Annie's ostensible father seems rather distant, even for someone who is acknowledged to be unemotional. His behavior makes more sense if he knows/suspects Antimony is not his biological daughter.
1) could also explain why Surma and Eglamore didn't end up together, if Reynardine took Eglamore's form. To put it gently, it could have ruined the idea of Eglamore for her - she'd think of Reynard's betrayal every time she saw him.
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Post by Mylian on Oct 27, 2010 14:09:20 GMT
Oh Reynard, still our favorite lovable perv.
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Post by jayne on Oct 27, 2010 14:57:03 GMT
I feel like a penny just dropped when I read this page. What if...what if Antimony is...the daughter of Reynard and Surma? (I realize there is evidence against that in aplenty, but...well, in the history of fiction, an author has never, EVER tried to lead his audience down the wrong path. Ever!) Hence her possible role as the reconciler of the Court and the Forest? Idle speculation. EDIT: I feel I have to give a little bit of supporting evidence. 1) That doomed "young man" Reynard inhabited; Reynard can apparently change form somewhat even when inhabiting another body. Could he have made himself look like Surma's husband? Or even...gulp...Eglamore? Or perhaps their tryst happened while he was still a spirit, in which case I would think he would be equally capable of such a change. 2) Annie's ostensible father seems rather distant, even for someone who is acknowledged to be unemotional. His behavior makes more sense if he knows/suspects Antimony is not his biological daughter. 1) could also explain why Surma and Eglamore didn't end up together, if Reynardine took Eglamore's form. To put it gently, it could have ruined the idea of Eglamore for her - she'd think of Reynard's betrayal every time she saw him. First read every page of this wiki: gunnerkrigg.wikia.com/wiki/Word_of_TomWait, wait... I'm kidding... I'm pretty sure that wiki is substantially longer than the entire Gunnerkrigg court story. (Its a good wiki to read when you get the chance!) This theory has been brought up many many many times and Tom has verified that Anthony is Annie's father. We still have no idea why he is how he is or what Surma ever saw in him.
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Post by jayne on Oct 27, 2010 15:04:19 GMT
Yeah, that one came out of left field. This page reminded me of Coyote telling Annie that eventually she'll be able to lift her own body with ease. Kids, Gather Round; It's Theory Time! I think that she is referencing reynard to reynardine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynardine) who is a werefox is an old English ballad. In the ballad, Reynardine flirts and seduces pretty girls, whose fates are unknown after this "meeting". Therefore I believe Surma is just being witty and calling him reynardine since he's being a bit of a flirt... I guess the name stuck ;3 Tom based Reynard on the character from that old ballad... so if Surma knows about this ballad, she's actually telling him his own name.... because the ballad would have been written about him. Whoever wrote the ballad took liberties with his real name. (But really it was Tom who took liberties with the name of the character from the ballad) This is like a little mental roller coaster! Wheeee!
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Post by zylonbane on Oct 27, 2010 15:39:10 GMT
Kids, Gather Round; It's Theory Time! I think that she is referencing reynard to reynardine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynardine) who is a werefox is an old English ballad. In the ballad, Reynardine flirts and seduces pretty girls, whose fates are unknown after this "meeting" Theory time? Eh? It's always been a given that the GK character of Reynardine was directly inspired by the myth. Ysengrin and Coyote are based on real-world myths as well. Tom even did a bonus page a few years back acknowledging the various and varied doggy myths: www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=362So you're kind of stating the obvious here. As for today's strip, I'm guessing that Reynard's "What name is this?" is a playful joke. Y'know, like how children know they're in real trouble when mom uses their full name. "Reynardine? Who? There's no Reynardine here. There is only... BATMAN!" Now stand back everyone, Surma's about to start her transformation sequence.
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Post by blahzor on Oct 27, 2010 15:42:36 GMT
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Post by jayne on Oct 27, 2010 15:56:05 GMT
Kids, Gather Round; It's Theory Time! I think that she is referencing reynard to reynardine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynardine) who is a werefox is an old English ballad. In the ballad, Reynardine flirts and seduces pretty girls, whose fates are unknown after this "meeting" Theory time? Eh? It's always been a given that the GK character of Reynardine was directly inspired by the myth. Ysengrin and Coyote are based on real-world myths as well. Tom even did a bonus page a few years back acknowledging the various and varied doggy myths: www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=362So you're kind of stating the obvious here. As for today's strip, I'm guessing that Reynard's "What name is this?" is a playful joke. Y'know, like how children know they're in real trouble when mom uses their full name. "Reynardine? Who? There's no Reynardine here. There is only... BATMAN!" Now stand back everyone, Surma's about to start her transformation sequence. You do understand some of the readers of GK and this forum are new to both and what's obvious to you may not be obvious to anyone else. I know about the ballad but obviously some other posters did not. To me, it seems obvious that Ysengrimus is a strong influence on GC but that too might be unknown to many readers. (its pretty cool though.. check it out!)
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skr33
New Member
Posts: 1
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Post by skr33 on Oct 27, 2010 16:06:35 GMT
I'm not sure if it's been said before, but Surma has the same eyeshadow as Antimony. I don't know if we've seen her wearing that before, but I only just noticed it in this strip.
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Post by Yin on Oct 27, 2010 16:11:34 GMT
She probably taught her how to use makeup. Mother-daughter bonding =)
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Post by Casey on Oct 27, 2010 16:41:53 GMT
Zylonbane, Jayne, sadly this time you are both mistaken. The legend that Brinunah linked to is that of Reynardine, NOT that of Renart et Ysengrin. Mild admonishment: when someone provides you a link, actually click on it before you assume what it leads to.
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Post by jayne on Oct 27, 2010 16:50:51 GMT
Zylonbane, Jayne, sadly this time you are both mistaken. The legend that Brinunah linked to is that of Reynardine, NOT that of Renart et Ysengrin. Mild admonishment: when someone provides you a link, actually click on it before you assume what it leads to. *Wags finger at Casey* I know... I just added the Renart et Ysengrin link to show Zy that some people might not know about that either. Its not obvious to someone that doesn't know it exists!
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Post by Casey on Oct 27, 2010 17:02:05 GMT
Zylonbane, Jayne, sadly this time you are both mistaken. The legend that Brinunah linked to is that of Reynardine, NOT that of Renart et Ysengrin. Mild admonishment: when someone provides you a link, actually click on it before you assume what it leads to. *Wags finger at Casey* I know... I just added the Renart et Ysengrin link to show Zy that some people might not know about that either. Its not obvious to someone that doesn't know it exists! Well okay, not arguing, but you said Tom based Renard/Reynardine on the Reynardine ballad, when he's actually based on the Renard and Ysengrin cycle. The character in Reynardine is not related at all to Renard. In fact if you read the history, it originally started off as Rynadine and it was one obscure reference that crossed Rynadine to Reynardine and then two authors in the 20th C. wrote stories to expand on the werefox angle, to where most folk singers today don't know that that was not the original story. So what Surma was doing here was taking Renard's actual name "Renard" and creating a pun of sorts, calling him "Reynardine" in reference to the -second- ballad, in order to tease him about being flirtatious. He, being French, obviously hadn't heard about this other, English, ballad.
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Post by joephlommin on Oct 27, 2010 17:06:26 GMT
Awww how cute Renerd. But in all seriousness this page is very revealing (no pun intended) to the plot.
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Post by jayne on Oct 27, 2010 17:12:58 GMT
*Wags finger at Casey* I know... I just added the Renart et Ysengrin link to show Zy that some people might not know about that either. Its not obvious to someone that doesn't know it exists! Well okay, not arguing, but you said Tom based Renard/Reynardine on the Reynardine ballad, when he's actually based on the Renard and Ysengrin cycle. The character in Reynardine is not related at all to Renard. In fact if you read the history, it originally started off as Rynadine and it was one obscure reference that crossed Rynadine to Reynardine and then two authors in the 20th C. wrote stories to expand on the werefox angle, to where most folk singers today don't know that that was not the original story. So what Surma was doing here was taking Renard's actual name "Renard" and creating a pun of sorts, calling him "Reynardine" in reference to the -second- ballad, in order to tease him about being flirtatious. He, being French, obviously hadn't heard about this other, English, ballad. The ballad is based on the myth so I group them all together with the GC story. Rey is Rey is Rey. I just thought it was funny if Surma is telling Rey about a story she read that was written about him. We'll find out Friday if this is the case!
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Post by jayne on Oct 27, 2010 17:14:22 GMT
I do the same with the Coyote stories too... they're all about Coyote but Tom's version hasn't mentioned his son yet so we can't assume he has one... its still Coyote though.
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Post by Casey on Oct 27, 2010 17:22:06 GMT
The ballad is based on the myth so I group them all together with the GC story. Rey is Rey is Rey. I just thought it was funny if Surma is telling Rey about a story she read that was written about him. No, Jayne, that's what I'm trying to tell you. Read the articles. The English ballad called Reynardine (origially Rynadine) has NOTHING to do with the French literary cycle of Renard the Fox.
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Post by jayne on Oct 27, 2010 17:31:02 GMT
The ballad is based on the myth so I group them all together with the GC story. Rey is Rey is Rey. I just thought it was funny if Surma is telling Rey about a story she read that was written about him. No, Jayne, that's what I'm trying to tell you. Read the articles. The English ballad called Reynardine (origially Rynadine) has NOTHING to do with the French literary cycle of Renard the Fox. Really? Is there some meaning to the name Rey* that would make them arbitrarily choose use such similar names for fox-ish characters? I assumed if you were French or if you were English, you learned to write by learning Latin and they overlapped. (The article looks very interesting but I'm at work... I only have time to reply during test cycles.) I think Leo is actually Latin for lion so maybe Rey-something is Latin for fox?
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Post by Casey on Oct 27, 2010 17:41:06 GMT
No, Jayne, that's what I'm trying to tell you. Read the articles. The English ballad called Reynardine (origially Rynadine) has NOTHING to do with the French literary cycle of Renard the Fox. Really? Is there some meaning to the name Rey* that would make them arbitrarily choose use such similar names for fox-ish characters? I assumed if you were French or if you were English, you learned to write by learning Latin and they overlapped. (The article looks very interesting but I'm at work... I only have time to reply during test cycles.) I think Leo is actually Latin for lion so maybe Rey-something is Latin for fox? Renard is the Latin word for fox, yes. Saying that that makes them about the same character, though, is tantamount to saying that Prince Charles = Charles Manson.
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Post by jayne on Oct 27, 2010 17:45:25 GMT
Really? Is there some meaning to the name Rey* that would make them arbitrarily choose use such similar names for fox-ish characters? I assumed if you were French or if you were English, you learned to write by learning Latin and they overlapped. (The article looks very interesting but I'm at work... I only have time to reply during test cycles.) I think Leo is actually Latin for lion so maybe Rey-something is Latin for fox? Renard is the Latin word for fox, yes. Saying that that makes them about the same character, though, is tantamount to saying that Prince Charles = Charles Manson. You mean I'm not Jayne Mansfield either? But that does explain it! Yes, I had it wrong!
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Post by beatfox on Oct 27, 2010 17:47:37 GMT
Renard is the Latin word for fox, yes. Actually, this is incorrect. The Latin word for fox is vulpes; Renard/Reynard comes from the old Germanic masculine name Reginhard, which has nothing to do with foxes. Reynard was simply the name chosen for the folkloric fox character, and it is from this that the modern French word for fox, "renard", stems from.
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Post by Casey on Oct 27, 2010 18:01:29 GMT
Renard is the Latin word for fox, yes. Actually, this is incorrect. The Latin word for fox is vulpes; Renard/Reynard comes from the old Germanic masculine name Reginhard, which has nothing to do with foxes. Reynard was simply the name chosen for the folkloric fox character, and it is from this that the modern French word for fox, "renard", stems from. Sorry, yes, you're absolutely right, I wrote Latin but meant French.
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Post by jayne on Oct 27, 2010 18:07:36 GMT
Actually, this is incorrect. The Latin word for fox is vulpes; Renard/Reynard comes from the old Germanic masculine name Reginhard, which has nothing to do with foxes. Reynard was simply the name chosen for the folkloric fox character, and it is from this that the modern French word for fox, "renard", stems from. Sorry, yes, you're absolutely right, I wrote Latin but meant French. If the folkloric fox character is from the fables written in 1148 or 1149 by the poet Nivardus, then Rey IS Rey! Nivardus was from Ghent so its feasible...
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Post by Casey on Oct 27, 2010 18:23:02 GMT
Renard and Ysengrin in Gunnerkrigg Court are supposed to be THE Renard and Ysengrin from European folklore, yes. Just as Coyote is supposed to be THE Coyote from Native American folklore.
The name Reynardine, however, I hope I've sufficiently demonstrated, comes from a 20th c. reinterpretation of an English ballad about a nefarious stranger who woos and kidnaps gullible young women. Hence Surma's joking reference, and Renard's unfamiliarity with the name.
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Post by jayne on Oct 27, 2010 18:27:01 GMT
Renard and Ysengrin in Gunnerkrigg Court are supposed to be THE Renard and Ysengrin from European folklore, yes. Just as Coyote is supposed to be THE Coyote from Native American folklore. The name Reynardine, however, I hope I've sufficiently demonstrated, comes from a 20th c. reinterpretation of an English ballad about a nefarious stranger who woos and kidnaps gullible young women. Hence Surma's joking reference, and Renard's unfamiliarity with the name. Yes, "Reynardine" comes from the ballad. We agreed on this from the start. But if the author of the ballad based his character on the folklore character and that's based on Nivardus' Reynard... its all the same guy.
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Post by jayne on Oct 27, 2010 18:29:43 GMT
Batman is Batman, whether he's from The Killing Joke or 1960's TV.... (that is just weird)
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Post by Casey on Oct 27, 2010 18:35:33 GMT
But if the author of the ballad based his character on the folklore character and that's based on Nivardus' Reynard... its all the same guy. Except (third attempt now) that's not what happened. Seriously Jayne you're awesome, but read the article.
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Post by beatfox on Oct 27, 2010 18:35:49 GMT
But if the author of the ballad based his character on the folklore character and that's based on Nivardus' Reynard... its all the same guy. It's not based on the folklore character, though - that's what Casey had been trying to say. The original name of the English ballad character (which has been given as Ranordine, Rinordine, Rinor Dine, and a number of other variations) just happened to sound similar to "renard", the French word for fox (which did come from the folklore character). It wasn't until the late 19th or early 20th century that the ballad character gained an association with foxes. e: casey is ninja master
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Post by jayne on Oct 27, 2010 19:08:23 GMT
I apologize for being overly stubborn but you guys know me by now. At least I'm not totally a brick and can recognize it.... eventually... So the ballad guy had the name first... but he was just a guy... THEN since it sounded foxy, he gained were-fox qualities, etc. (I wish I had more reading time.. I still haven't gotten all the way through Nivardus's page.)
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Post by Casey on Oct 27, 2010 19:18:46 GMT
I apologize for being overly stubborn but you guys know me by now. At least I'm not totally a brick and can recognize it.... eventually... So the ballad guy had the name first... but he was just a guy... THEN since it sounded foxy, he gained were-fox qualities, etc. (I wish I had more reading time.. I still haven't gotten all the way through Nivardus's page.) The character in the 11th-century literary cycle had the name (Renard, Reynard, Renart) first. Independently of that, in the 18th-19th century (earliest citation) there was a ballad published in England about a human scoundrel named Ranordine, Rynadine, other various interations. Nothing like, or related to, Renard (which, by this time, had become the common-usage word in French for "fox", based solely on the literary cycle). Then, some guy around the turn of the century wrote one version of the ballad where he called him Reynardine instead of one of those other names, in an apparent allusion to the word renard, to give him more "foxy" attributes. This in turn got blown out of proportion by two blokes in the 1960s who wrote all sorts of derivative works playing up on the "werefox" angle that was nowhere to be found in the original story. Based off of that one guy who used the name Reynardine. Those two blokes caught a wave of interest in werecreatures nascent during those modern times, and -their- retellings of the original ballad became popular, to the point that most folk singers don't even know that the whole werefox angle is less than 50 years old. There, I have now basically paraphrased the information that is in the article that (gentle teasing continues) you could have read for yourself when Brinunah first linked it!
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Post by jayne on Oct 27, 2010 19:39:56 GMT
I apologize for being overly stubborn but you guys know me by now. At least I'm not totally a brick and can recognize it.... eventually... So the ballad guy had the name first... but he was just a guy... THEN since it sounded foxy, he gained were-fox qualities, etc. (I wish I had more reading time.. I still haven't gotten all the way through Nivardus's page.) The character in the 11th-century literary cycle had the name (Renard, Reynard, Renart) first. Independently of that, in the 18th-19th century (earliest citation) there was a ballad published in England about a human scoundrel named Ranordine, Rynadine, other various interations. Nothing like, or related to, Renard (which, by this time, had become the common-usage word in French for "fox", based solely on the literary cycle). Then, some guy around the turn of the century wrote one version of the ballad where he called him Reynardine instead of one of those other names, in an apparent allusion to the word renard, to give him more "foxy" attributes. This in turn got blown out of proportion by two blokes in the 1960s who wrote all sorts of derivative works playing up on the "werefox" angle that was nowhere to be found in the original story. Based off of that one guy who used the name Reynardine. Those two blokes caught a wave of interest in werecreatures nascent during those modern times, and -their- retellings of the original ballad became popular, to the point that most folk singers don't even know that the whole werefox angle is less than 50 years old. There, I have now basically paraphrased the information that is in the article that (gentle teasing continues) you could have read for yourself when Brinunah first linked it! "THIS is TOO COOL!" : quoted from Syndrome! I will gladly accept well deserved teasing BUT guess what I just figured out..... you can download a wiki page in pdf format.... You can open a pdf document into Adobe Reader.... Adobe reader will READ it out loud to you! I can listen to it while I'm working! ....less cool edit: Ooooo Stephen Hawking is reading it to me! ....even less cool edit: Its Stephen Hawking, doing ventriloquism using a wet Spongebob Squarepants dummy.... so... yeah... not gonna work... Oh and Adobe reader just crashed... so much for modern conveniences.
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