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Post by Casey on Jul 14, 2010 17:23:34 GMT
Aside from the fact that Diego was a rather bad person, his designs also apparently used quite a bit of unexplainable magitek, which Kat abhors. That's an interesting statement. I wouldn't have gone for "abhors". What makes you say that?
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Post by the bandit on Jul 14, 2010 17:33:06 GMT
This would serve as an excellent exclamatory, along with "by Siddell's right nub"!
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Post by djublonskopf on Jul 14, 2010 17:39:56 GMT
Don't worry about the noise, Kat. It's just a girly-squeal from an alternate universe. (That's today's comic. In case you were still wondering whether Tom is psychic.) Ha! I came here to link to that . . . good thing I read through the other comments first . . ..
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Post by atteSmythe on Jul 14, 2010 18:05:27 GMT
Aside from the fact that Diego was a rather bad person, his designs also apparently used quite a bit of unexplainable magitek Good call, I'd forgotten Kat's reaction to her mom's 'computer.'
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Post by Casey on Jul 14, 2010 20:32:25 GMT
I don't think Kat abhors "magitek" (that's not a good term for the GC universe, incidentally). I think that she likes being able to understand and explain things, but that's not abhorrence. Now Ysengrin... there's a guy who abhors magitek. In fact, I want to point out that at the bottom of this page from Blinking, Kat engages her mother in a conversation about Anja's "magitek", seeming to take an interest in it beyond Annie's, and then on this page, she begins to question her own skepticism by comparing it against The Court's even greater disdain for things that can't be explained. Kat is the one who points out that it isn't right to dismiss something that works just because it can't be explained. So I definitely think it would be inaccurate to say that Kat abhors "magitek". But I'm still curious to hear explanations to the contrary.
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Post by aaroncampbell on Jul 14, 2010 21:59:41 GMT
Sad update. I find I really feel for the little robots. Not only do they idolize Kat, but have a lot of hope vested in her - they've had to make their own bodies, with diminishing returns, since Diego's time. They have to be hoping that Kat can restore some of their former design and ability. They put so much on the shoulders of a girl who's still learning, not only her craft but about the world she lives in and the treachery that humanity is capable of. It's not fair of them to do so, but she's their only hope right now, not only of restoration, but it seems to me that they feel that it's required of them to redeem their creator...to validate their existence by proving that they are good despite Diego's flaws. Really, they're both dealing with the same issue - sins of the father. Not so literally for Kat, but she's still part of a society founded on treachery and selfishness. It seems that Kat is in a better position to actually do something to prove her independence, however, and so she carries their burden as well as her own. Maybe I'm reading too much into this nascent chapter, but I've long had a soft spot for the Court's robots. They seem to need a protector, and have gone without one for so long. I hope it doesn't take Kat too long to realize that they're worthy of it, and that she doesn't resent being pressed into that role. Well said. I also hope that she realizes their relational tie to her -- if anything, she can hurt them more than Diego did. The robots have dealt with loss for a very long time, and just now see in her a chance for redemption and hope. Their only chance, really, given the rest of the Court's attitudes toward robots, and the fact that she is the only one that understands them and their history. On a lighter note, some not-so-serious plot ideas: maybe someone will bring her the remains of Guard Bot to restore. He can bring light to dark places once more, "whistling" his way into the hearts of millions! Also, we'll know if Kat is slipping into mad scientist mode if she tries to (brace for terribleness) make Boxbot awesome.
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Post by todd on Jul 14, 2010 22:17:41 GMT
I do wonder whether rejecting Diego's designs because of his betrayal and murder of Jeanne is entirely logical. Rejecting the findings of Nazi scientists because of the brutal experiments that they'd used to achieve those findings - yes, definitely. But Diego's designs for robots were not the consequences of his actions towards Jeanne; indeed, he had probably come by them before he plotted her death with the other Founders. (Gunnerkrigg's protection from Gillitie Wood, on the other hand....)
Perhaps in this chapter, Kat will need to learn the dangers of arguments "ad hominem".
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blue
Junior Member
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Post by blue on Jul 14, 2010 23:42:02 GMT
this stuff is trash (you who are designed by them are also trash)
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Post by Mishmash on Jul 14, 2010 23:46:49 GMT
I agree with you guys about Kat screwing up the plans and throwing them away because of her feelings towards Diego, but I also think that on top of that there is the fact that she is still a young, frustrated girl who is lashing out because things are not going her way.
It actually kind of reminds me of the way Jeanne once smashed those little robot friends in a fit of rage.
Man we are only two pages in and this chapter is already interesting!
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monte
Junior Member
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Post by monte on Jul 14, 2010 23:48:57 GMT
I do wonder whether rejecting Diego's designs because of his betrayal and murder of Jeanne is entirely logical. Rejecting the findings of Nazi scientists because of the brutal experiments that they'd used to achieve those findings - yes, definitely. But Diego's designs for robots were not the consequences of his actions towards Jeanne; indeed, he had probably come by them before he plotted her death with the other Founders. (Gunnerkrigg's protection from Gillitie Wood, on the other hand....) Perhaps in this chapter, Kat will need to learn the dangers of arguments "ad hominem". It's not all logical... even your nazi comparison is not logical... As far as logic is concerned, as long as the science is correct then their is no reason to reject the use of it... WHO created the science, and HOW they created it is not a reasonable excuse for not using the science that exists because of them... you probably shouldn't go REPEATING some of those actions, but you should not ignore the science that exists because of them It's all purely moralistic... In a way, Kat's behavior could be considered to be immature... ignoring the great work a sceintist did, just because of her own personal feelings about the scientist... when it comes down to it, Diego's work is not trash and she would benefit greatly from studying it... nor do the robots deserve her contempt because they are based off of diego's work and are programmed to keep revering him
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Post by dawngazer on Jul 15, 2010 0:04:04 GMT
Come on ladies and gentlemen, I think we ALL know the reason why Kat's pissed.
The designs that the bots thought were Deigo's was actually Kat's, and she's pissed they didn't realize her genius.
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monte
Junior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by monte on Jul 15, 2010 0:05:06 GMT
Aside from the fact that Diego was a rather bad person, his designs also apparently used quite a bit of unexplainable magitek, which Kat abhors. Making something equal to his designs using only well-understood, scientifically-proven principles and methods would also seem to be more of an accomplishment than simply building something based off his original work. I really don't think the Magitek has anything to do with it... When it comes down to it, Kat doesn't believe in magic and believes that EVERYTHING can be explained through sceince... and that would include the magitek. If it were not for her feelings about Diego, she would be spending her time trying to study his work and trying to figure out the science behind the magitek, and thus turn into into an well-understood, science-proven principles. Hell, by understanding the magitek, she can score one more point for logical science
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lovecraft1024
Full Member
What does anything mean? Basically
Posts: 118
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Post by lovecraft1024 on Jul 15, 2010 0:09:38 GMT
I agree with you guys about Kat screwing up the plans and throwing them away because of her feelings towards Diego, but I also think that on top of that there is the fact that she is still a young, frustrated girl who is lashing out because things are not going her way. Of the explanations of why Kat is acting as she is now, this is the one I now agree with the most, although in Kat's case I think it's not that things are not going her way, but just that her idealism has been shattered. I still don't quite understand the hostility; personally I'd be quite interested in the "how" of Diego's creations. But given the amazing things Kat has done already, it must be quite a rude awakening to find that people can be so selfish and mean.
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Post by TBeholder on Jul 15, 2010 0:58:37 GMT
Jack looked like a great boy and turned out to be a creep, Diego was a genius and turned out to be a bastard, Annie is grounded, she can't improve her design, and now these guys give her these cryptic pictures. Ah, poor girl is annoyed for too long. Hence her... un-angelic behaviour. Dear gosh, the Court is being invaded by forces of the floating alphabet! The E's might be trouble, but wait till the I's come in... they're thin, thus almost invisible and lethally pointy! (The O's are less effective, obviously.) No, those 'O's could bounce. Again and again, like a rubber bomb. Reminds me of NetHack. ;D Of course, that would mean Kat's about to get attacked by Elementals @_@ Or maybe Dwarf Fortress. Big 'E's can be Elves, Ettins Giant eagles, Elks, Elephants or Elk birds, depending on their color (and small 'i's are fire imps). You mention Reynardine's pointed comments. What chapter were they in? " You see he probably had a good personality."
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Post by Mishmash on Jul 15, 2010 1:19:10 GMT
I agree with you guys about Kat screwing up the plans and throwing them away because of her feelings towards Diego, but I also think that on top of that there is the fact that she is still a young, frustrated girl who is lashing out because things are not going her way. Of the explanations of why Kat is acting as she is now, this is the one I now agree with the most, although in Kat's case I think it's not that things are not going her way, but just that her idealism has been shattered. I still don't quite understand the hostility; personally I'd be quite interested in the "how" of Diego's creations. But given the amazing things Kat has done already, it must be quite a rude awakening to find that people can be so selfish and mean. I meant not getting her way in the sense that she can't get Robot's new body working how she wants it to. But the worldview disruption thing is obviously important too! After all, Annie has already expressed concerns over it to Reynardine.
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Post by Dvandaemon on Jul 15, 2010 1:51:05 GMT
Kat is also a little similar to Deigo given her um....nose.
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Post by hal9000 on Jul 15, 2010 8:30:06 GMT
I do wonder whether rejecting Diego's designs because of his betrayal and murder of Jeanne is entirely logical. Rejecting the findings of Nazi scientists because of the brutal experiments that they'd used to achieve those findings - yes, definitely. But Diego's designs for robots were not the consequences of his actions towards Jeanne; indeed, he had probably come by them before he plotted her death with the other Founders. (Gunnerkrigg's protection from Gillitie Wood, on the other hand....) Perhaps in this chapter, Kat will need to learn the dangers of arguments "ad hominem". Funny story, for the most part, the data from the Nazis' experiments on human beings was not actually discarded. That aside, I think her personal hatred for the man is probably one of the driving factors behind her not wanting to use his designs. I don't think that her refusal to use his designs is necessarily a bad thing, though, since as I said, it's more of an accomplishment (and a better learning experience, to boot) to design and build something like that from scratch, as opposed to just using someone else's design.
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Post by mudmaniac on Jul 15, 2010 11:11:19 GMT
Funny story, for the most part, the data from the Nazis' experiments on human beings was not actually discarded. That aside, I think her personal hatred for the man is probably one of the driving factors behind her not wanting to use his designs. I don't think that her refusal to use his designs is necessarily a bad thing, though, since as I said, it's more of an accomplishment (and a better learning experience, to boot) to design and build something like that from scratch, as opposed to just using someone else's design. "What we obtain too cheaply, we esteem too lightly; it is dearness only that gives everything its value." I love this quote. I use it everywhere even when the context does not quite fit.
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Post by Ulysses on Jul 15, 2010 18:19:34 GMT
Someone should photoshop that in! Maybe put it in the Boxbot thread. Your wish is granted. And this is Gunnerkrigg Court, people; can we stop talking about Magitek? It's "etheric science", please.
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Post by beekay on Jul 15, 2010 19:37:03 GMT
If you look over Kat's shoulder instead of between the lines, you'll see a seletal elbow next to a diagram.
Obviously I can't read the "text" and if you see anything between these lines, I don't want to hear it because I'm more interested in the lines of the diagram. You can either read this as a flowchart or a "fishbone" diagram. A flowchart starts at one point and works its way to an intended goal. If this were actually a useful diagram, Kat could start at the vaguely magical thing at the top, skip down to the real science, and then work her way back up substituting real scientific notation for old alchemy notation.
However, if this diagram is done in the "fishbone style," then you start, not at the "skull," but at one of the "rib bones," working your way in to the "spine." If each of the bones represented an engineering problem, the top vertebra would be "duct tape," followed by the specific variation (chewing gum, solder, percussive maintenance, prayer) that fit each problem.
The solution to Kat's every problem is magic, according to this diagram, making it useless to someone who's actual problem is trying to build a scanner to isolate the etheromagnetic signals used to control the robots.
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Post by Gemini Jim on Jul 15, 2010 19:49:39 GMT
Well, this is certainly shaping up to be an interesting chapter. I like the Nazi analogy; it may not be perfect, but it certainly shows where Kat's mind is coming from. over the course of the comic, Diego has gone from being a man Kat admired (because of his incredible robot designs) to a man Kat now clearly hates (because of his actions). More importantly, he may have gone from being a role model to a rival: artists throughout history have long studied and imitated the "old masters", until like the Impressionist "enfant terribles", they break away and try to prove that they can do one better on their own — which is what Kat appears to be attempting. Of course, minus the Nazi implications, this means that Kat has just thrown away the equivalent of Leonardo's anatomy drawings
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Post by judgedeadd on Jul 16, 2010 6:23:24 GMT
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Post by Snes on Jul 16, 2010 6:56:00 GMT
Forgive my ignorance, but in regards to what?
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Post by Gemini Jim on Jul 16, 2010 7:49:50 GMT
Forgive my ignorance, but in regards to what? I'm guessing it's because people are comparing Diego to a Nazi scientist: he was a brilliant mind, but he was directly involved in killing the woman he loved, and that action clearly is a major source of Kat's ethical dilemma. (The dilemma goes something like this: if a scientific discovery is made using unethical methods, are the results tainted?) I'm not sure Godwin's Law applies in this case. If you're discussing the holocaust, or if the actual historical Nazis are part of your central argument, it's not really the same thing as calling people Nazis, which is what Godwin's Law really warns against.
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Post by kirvoq on Jul 16, 2010 8:46:48 GMT
(The dilemma goes something like this: if a scientific discovery is made using unethical methods, are the results tainted?) But scheming Jeanne's death has nothing to do with the methods of Diego's scientific discoveries. I think it's a personal dilemma and not an ethical one.
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Post by todd on Jul 16, 2010 10:42:08 GMT
If anything, I think the ethical dilemma is about keeping the Court safe from the angry residents of Gillitie Wood (like Ysengrin) through Jeanne's ghost being tethered to the Annan Waters.
(Of course, Diego wasn't even doing it to protect the Court, as the other Founders were, but just revenge for her rejection of him. I sometimes wonder whether the other Founders might even have come upon a better way of solving the problem if not for Diego's tone of "If I can't have her, I'll see that no one else does.")
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Post by Mezzaphor on Aug 4, 2010 3:38:22 GMT
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