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Post by jasmijn on Nov 28, 2012 8:05:08 GMT
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Post by GK Sierra on Nov 28, 2012 8:05:55 GMT
Ah, the old Jones hoax. A classic.
This conclusion makes me speculate what effect cults of personality and totalitarian regimes had on the "actual" course of history. For example, how would one reconcile the millions of North Koreans who believe (before the famine, of course) that their leader is literally a god? Would that make it so? How would conflicting social visions change the world if they are inherently contrary?
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alexh
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Post by alexh on Nov 28, 2012 8:06:59 GMT
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Post by Eversist on Nov 28, 2012 8:11:00 GMT
What, because they both have footprints? Doubt it.  I don't think Tom ever intends to address that (except maybe in a self-referencial making-fun-of-myself way) -- So is it safe to assume that magic only because humans believe it to be real? ...Oh no, I'm going down the "I do, I do, I do believe in fairies!" route. |
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Post by GK Sierra on Nov 28, 2012 8:12:22 GMT
What, because they both have footprints? Doubt it. -- So is it safe to assume that magic only because humans believe it to be real? ...Oh no, I'm going down the "I do, I do, I do believe in fairies!" route. You have to wonder, what sets humans apart from other bags of protoplasm that they can literally change the fabric of consensus reality with their mind? Maybe you have to die and have your beliefs absorbed back into the ether along with whatever Tom is calling a soul to have an effect. |
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Post by magicman23 on Nov 28, 2012 8:12:38 GMT
I registered in this forum for the sole purpose of claiming that Gunnerkrigg Court is set in the Unknown Armies setting and that The Freak is in truth Dr. Anthony Carver who has submerged himself in the Occult Underground in the hopes of finding a cure for his daughter.
God, I hope someone gets this joke.
Edit: Oh, and I almost forgot; Jones is an unknowing incarnation of the Comte de Saint Germain.
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Post by fermion on Nov 28, 2012 8:13:07 GMT
Does this suggest that Jones could actually be the product of human imaginations that don't exist yet? She doesn't seem to fit into any current mythology, so she must exist because of stories that will be told sometime in the future.
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mechagai
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Post by mechagai on Nov 28, 2012 8:15:29 GMT
I know that Tom said that he sort of makes things up as he goes along, but the basic outline for the chapter itself is planned before he starts doing the art. It could be that Tom definitely had Jones in mind and planted that there early on so he could reference it later. It could also be that he just put that there because he thought it was cryptic enough to keep everyone guessing while he figured out how to tie it into the story later. |
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Post by GK Sierra on Nov 28, 2012 8:17:55 GMT
Does this suggest that Jones could actually be the product of human imaginations that don't exist yet? She doesn't seem to fit into any current mythology, so she must exist because of stories that will be told sometime in the future. I don't know about future thoughts. It's kind of like the time traveler dilemma. If travel to the past was possible, we would be literally swamped with visitors, but we have seen nary a one (so far). If future human thoughts could manifest in the previous time frame, then every square inch would be packed to bursting with all manners of gods and creatures and conflicting narratives. The only other possibility would be that the human race goes extinct shortly after the end of Jones' spiel, which doesn't seem like the most riveting plot development. |
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Rymdljus
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Post by Rymdljus on Nov 28, 2012 8:22:58 GMT
God, I love this kind of thing!
At what point was Jones created? When exactly did people start believing in her? The people of Gunnerkrigg Court sure do now, but is this because of the fact that she exists, or does she exist because of the fact that the people of Gunnerkrigg Court believe in her?
Does she exist now because people started believing in her at some point because she exists now?
Agh.
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quoodle
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Post by quoodle on Nov 28, 2012 8:23:40 GMT
Does this suggest that Jones could actually be the product of human imaginations that don't exist yet? She doesn't seem to fit into any current mythology, so she must exist because of stories that will be told sometime in the future. Or perhaps at this very moment? I can imagine a cartoonist somewhere drawing at his desk..... Sorry, couldn't help myself ;D |
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Søren
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Post by Søren on Nov 28, 2012 8:23:44 GMT
The only other possibility would be that the human race goes extinct shortly after the end of Jones' spiel, which doesn't seem like the most riveting plot development. As long as Bruce Willis is involved and it ends with a bang rather than a squeal, I'm game. |
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Søren
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Post by Søren on Nov 28, 2012 8:24:34 GMT
Does this suggest that Jones could actually be the product of human imaginations that don't exist yet? She doesn't seem to fit into any current mythology, so she must exist because of stories that will be told sometime in the future. Or perhaps at this very moment? I can imagine a cartoonist somewhere drawing at his desk..... Sorry, could't help myself ;D And then the cartoonist died of a heart attack, sparing them from the horrible monster ;D  |
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mechagai
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Post by mechagai on Nov 28, 2012 8:26:28 GMT
Also, remember that Jones remembers seeing the stars during the formation of the Earth. (We, as the audience, can clearly see the stars, too.) According to the mythos, though, the Earth was already there without stars in the sky, so it's a bit sketchy to me how could be. At any rate, looking back, I realized why the last panel in www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=1099 has her looking so awkward. |
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alexh
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Post by alexh on Nov 28, 2012 8:27:22 GMT
I do remember reading somewhere that the footprints really were an abandoned side-plot (and of course initially unrelated to Jones entirely). This could just be Tom's way of tying that up quickly and efficiently. The only other possibility would be that the human race goes extinct shortly after the end of Jones' spiel, which doesn't seem like the most riveting plot development. I don't know, sounds pretty riveting to me... |
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Post by legion on Nov 28, 2012 8:32:50 GMT
It will turn out this is all the doing of Retroactive Man.
Bitten by a retroactive spider, Retroactive Man has all the powers of retroactivity.
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Post by ctso74 on Nov 28, 2012 9:04:25 GMT
Apparently, they didn't imagine her using blinker stones. Who ever and when ever "they" are. how would one reconcile the millions of North Koreans who believe (before the famine, of course) that their leader is literally a god? Would that make it so? The humanity!!! |
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Post by slartibartfast on Nov 28, 2012 9:05:38 GMT
I registered in this forum for the sole purpose of claiming that Gunnerkrigg Court is set in the Unknown Armies setting and that The Freak is in truth Dr. Anthony Carver who has submerged himself in the Occult Underground in the hopes of finding a cure for his daughter. God, I hope someone gets this joke. Edit: Oh, and I almost forgot; Jones is an unknowing incarnation of the Comte de Saint Germain. I do indeed get this joke. However, I registered solely to both finally utilize my comically extensive knowledge of Unknown Armies and be a killjoy. I really don't see any evidence that Anthony Carver is an avatar of the Mystic Hermaphrodite. Not to mention that being (depending on what time in The Freak's career) an insanely powerful epideromancer Carver could quite easily cure Antimony. Of course, it would necessitate a few major charges, but I imagine Anthony wouldn't mind losing an arm or some stat's. Although maybe he is waiting to create his godwalker channel until he sees Antimony again and can decipher exactly what he would need to cure her. Also, I can both see and not see The Comte de St. Germain as Jones. Mostly because there is no evidence that he is ever a stable entity. Though it is certainly within his power. P.S. I know you were just joking, but I really wanted to finally use my obsessive knowledge of Unkown Armies. And I like arguments in which both sides are amused by the content, rather than enraged. |
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Post by seaofalchemy on Nov 28, 2012 9:18:10 GMT
"All supernatural creatures are created by the thoughts of man."
"Can something exist before it is created?"
"...the human mind is capable of great power. The power to shape the world."
I hesitate to mention this, as the topic might be controversial, but this is starting to remind me of a typical atheist vs. God-believer debate.
Anyway.
I was looking at the last panel, and I started to chuckle. It almost looks like a giant book is leaning against the wall in Jones's office.
"Jones has a few books in which her history was stumbled upon." Whenever Jones comes across a history book that mentions her footprints or hoaxes, I wonder if she's like, "Aha! I'm mentioned yet again!"
Then this made me wonder... what if some mythological creatures were inspired by Jones? Prior to seeing Annie and Jones conversing, we all theorized that Jones was this, or Jones was that, or Galatea (associated with The Stone as Galatea was a statue/scupture), or associated with Ra of Ancient Egypt (or Hathor and Sekhmet), or a golem, or whatever. What if mythological creatures or beings in many cultures were inspired by Jones? She's been around the planet since the formation of the planet. Many people of many cultures throughout time probably encountered her and seen her abilities and uniqueness. Perhaps she's so memorable and “supernatural” that they created stories about her—or rather, inspired by her? Maybe sometimes changing her character a bit; making her male instead of female. Nah, I'm just talking nonsense. :p
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psykeout
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Post by psykeout on Nov 28, 2012 9:27:00 GMT
Two new theories I been thinkin of, following the same line of thought. I've been thinking about what Coyote and Annie said about Jones. Which is basically: Coyote- Mankind is really powerful and they can create things by believing in them Annie- But wait that can't be right, Jones disproves that Coyote- It may seem that way, but she is in fact a perfect example of my theory (also something about stars) This means that Jones is somehow a creation of Man in a similar fashion to Coyote, but in a way that seems contradictory. Theory 1) The theme in this chapter is obviously that we're moving farther and farther back, which means that the ultimate destination is the beginning of time (provided we go back that far). What if Jones was once a regular woman, or a stone (as this page may be foreshadowing) or perhaps the stars in the night sky even. And people then saw her and formed a myth about her (just like how people formed myths about coyote). But this particular myth was that she was present at the beginning of time. Perhaps she's something like a guardian figure or maintainer. This would cause Annie to say "You can't be right, because then Jones couldn't exist, because she was around before her myths ever existed." to which Coyote would say "But that's just it, the mind of man is so powerful and hungry for answers that if it can believe someone existed at the beginning of time, then they can make it so" Called it :B Sort of at least. I guessed more than I needed too but I knew that Jones was created after she existed. That was the bottom line go me whoop whoop. Furthermore, There's an interesting god paradox somewhere that talks about "if god created existence, does he exist?" and about being able to exist before creation and etc. Just something that ties into the Jones is God idea that some people are fond of. (I'm not) |
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Post by legion on Nov 28, 2012 9:40:03 GMT
This is kind of like how an omnipotent being can exist even in a universe where they have been proven not to exist.
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alexh
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Post by alexh on Nov 28, 2012 9:45:56 GMT
Could Jones retroactively imagine herself?
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Post by basser on Nov 28, 2012 9:58:50 GMT
I think the message here is that (within the context of the comic) humans, despite seeming boring and ordinary in comparison to the fantastical creatures around them, are actually the most powerful magical beings to ever exist.
I'm also thinking this could be thematically tied to Kat's whole business with the having crazy technological ideas that just seem to work no matter what, but I dunno. Like perhaps she has an extra helping of human brain-magic?
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Nov 28, 2012 10:07:26 GMT
Then this made me wonder... what if some mythological creatures were inspired by Jones? Prior to seeing Annie and Jones conversing, we all theorized that Jones was this, or Jones was that, or Galatea (associated with The Stone as Galatea was a statue/scupture), or associated with Ra of Ancient Egypt (or Hathor and Sekhmet), or a golem, or whatever. What if mythological creatures or beings in many cultures were inspired by Jones? She's been around the planet since the formation of the planet. Many people of many cultures throughout time probably encountered her and seen her abilities and uniqueness. Perhaps she's so memorable and “supernatural” that they created stories about her—or rather, inspired by her? Maybe sometimes changing her character a bit; making her male instead of female. Nah, I'm just talking nonsense. :p Aye, Galatea (the myth) and Hathor's icon are only out as origin theories... unless the central figure was retroactively modified into a theoretical immutable observer compliant with modern theories of existence, of course. Just Jones interacting as we've seen her normally do would be sufficient for the Galatea myth. [I've only quit using the word Galatea to describe my Jones-is-a-living-statue theory because it's now trollbait that I would have to reexplain with every use.] I think the message here is that (within the context of the comic) humans, despite seeming boring and ordinary in comparison to the fantastical creatures around them, are actually the most powerful magical beings to ever exist. I'm still waiting to see if there are other beings in the Gunnerverse in whom the ether flows like it does with humans. |
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Post by Angry Robot on Nov 28, 2012 10:52:14 GMT
I think this dialogue from the Star Trek - The Next Generation episode "Where No One Has Gone Before" seems appropriate...
Wesley Crusher: ...space and time and thought... aren't the separate things they appear to be? I just thought the formula you were using said something like that...
The Traveler: Boy, don't ever say that again, especially not at your age in a world that's not ready for such... such dangerous nonsense.
[Edit] Oh yes, this line too:
The Traveler: You do understand, don't you, that thought is the basis of all reality. The energy of thought, to put in your terms, is very powerful.
Also, if Tom is reading this, there's a typo in panel 4: "lets us assume" should probably be "let us assume" (or "let's assume" but that is less Jones-like).
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Post by magicman23 on Nov 28, 2012 11:01:44 GMT
I do indeed get this joke. However, I registered solely to both finally utilize my comically extensive knowledge of Unknown Armies and be a killjoy. I really don't see any evidence that Anthony Carver is an avatar of the Mystic Hermaphrodite. Not to mention that being (depending on what time in The Freak's career) an insanely powerful epideromancer Carver could quite easily cure Antimony. Of course, it would necessitate a few major charges, but I imagine Anthony wouldn't mind losing an arm or some stat's. Although maybe he is waiting to create his godwalker channel until he sees Antimony again and can decipher exactly what he would need to cure her. Also, I can both see and not see The Comte de St. Germain as Jones. Mostly because there is no evidence that he is ever a stable entity. Though it is certainly within his power. P.S. I know you were just joking, but I really wanted to finally use my obsessive knowledge of Unkown Armies. And I like arguments in which both sides are amused by the content, rather than enraged. I'm going to pursue this debate because the horrible thing is is that I've thought a lot about this because I have light insomnia and I'm bored in class. Also, I'm bored tonight and none of my friends play UA. This whole thing is largely a joke and if anyone's annoyed by this I'll gladly take this to PMs or make another thread. From what we've seen, Annie's bloodline's problem comes from the "fire" inside them. From what I've read,I only have the core rulebook, epideromancers only have power over biological domains. I interpret the Fire being something more metaphysical. The most powerful epideromancers couldn't help. I can even see Anthony's descent into adept-hood; Unnatural checks out the wazoo and we've seen evidence in Chapter 37 that Anthony probably lost a lot of Self or Helplessness checks. He probably woke up one day, after a night of hanging with his weird group of friends, crazy as hell and making a new philosophy in his head that helped him cope. The whole him being gone for months at a time actually supports this a bit. What the hell was he up to? Underground stuff that's what. Going to be honest, the only reason I linked him to epideromancer was because I've seen so many PCs and NPC Epi's become doctors to cover their taboo. The whole thing would explain why he was so "against" etheric science. He was trying to hide his crazy. Which brings me to my next point. The Mystic Hermaphrodite represents paradox. A person of science like Anthony Carver being inextricably bound to magick. I can see this whole character arc in my head of Anthony being more and more uncertain about his double life and never really dealing with that paradox in his head. Probably happened just as unexpectedly as the adept thing. Quite tragic in a way. One of the most feared things in the occult world started as just some kid who wanted his world to make sense. The Jones thing is mostly personal canon, which UA is good for which is one of the reasons I like it so much. I've always thought that while there is one Comte, there are multiple incarnations of him running around and a couple of them are totally unaware of their true nature. Partially because I think that The First and Last Man in a way represents the full scope of human experience and that's hard to get when you're what is essentially God 24/7. Your move slartibartfast. |
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Post by download on Nov 28, 2012 11:30:47 GMT
I'm not buying it that Jones is the same thing as Coyote, what mythology is she from?
Anyway, she has presented it as a theory, and does not seem to agree with it
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Post by todd on Nov 28, 2012 11:40:39 GMT
Jones' footprints were probably inspired by those reports of human footprints in prehistoric rock at places like Antelope Springs, Utah, or the Paluxy riverbed in Texas which get cited by people claiming that humans were around far longer than conventional science has concluded.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Nov 28, 2012 12:39:27 GMT
I'm not buying it that Jones is the same thing as Coyote, what mythology is she from? IF she is a being like Coyote then she is a representation of objective observation and theoretically myth-less belief systems that many people have faith in. As one (maybe) emotionless and (probably) impartial observer Jones "proves" evolution really happened like the Buddha proves the path to enlightenment exists. But that is IF she is a being like Coyote. I think she is stone so technically she would exist as something even if that were the case. |
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Post by slartibartfast on Nov 28, 2012 12:43:34 GMT
I'm going to pursue this debate because the horrible thing is is that I've thought a lot about this because I have light insomnia and I'm bored in class. Also, I'm bored tonight and none of my friends play UA. This whole thing is largely a joke and if anyone's annoyed by this I'll gladly take this to PMs or make another thread. From what we've seen, Annie's bloodline's problem comes from the "fire" inside them. From what I've read,I only have the core rulebook, epideromancers only have power over biological domains. I interpret the Fire being something more metaphysical. The most powerful epideromancers couldn't help. I can even see Anthony's descent into adept-hood; Unnatural checks out the wazoo and we've seen evidence in Chapter 37 that Anthony probably lost a lot of Self or Helplessness checks. He probably woke up one day, after a night of hanging with his weird group of friends, crazy as hell and making a new philosophy in his head that helped him cope. The whole him being gone for months at a time actually supports this a bit. What the hell was he up to? Underground stuff that's what. Going to be honest, the only reason I linked him to epideromancer was because I've seen so many PCs and NPC Epi's become doctors to cover their taboo. The whole thing would explain why he was so "against" etheric science. He was trying to hide his crazy. Which brings me to my next point. The Mystic Hermaphrodite represents paradox. A person of science like Anthony Carver being inextricably bound to magick. I can see this whole character arc in my head of Anthony being more and more uncertain about his double life and never really dealing with that paradox in his head. Probably happened just as unexpectedly as the adept thing. Quite tragic in a way. One of the most feared things in the occult world started as just some kid who wanted his world to make sense. The Jones thing is mostly personal canon, which UA is good for which is one of the reasons I like it so much. I've always thought that while there is one Comte, there are multiple incarnations of him running around and a couple of them are totally unaware of their true nature. Partially because I think that The First and Last Man in a way represents the full scope of human experience and that's hard to get when you're what is essentially God 24/7. Your move slartibartfast. I too only have the core rulebook, so that should make things nice and equal. Also, I agree that if anyone thinks this is too inside jokey it would be fine to bring this to PM's/another thread. None of my friends play UA either, so I've just been itching for an opportunity to talk about it. Although the problems with Annie come from the "fire inside her" I could very much see that being interpreted as being a part of her body. It really depends on the particular GM who is playing, and their interpretation of body. It seems that epideromancers usually focus on an individuals body, and theoretically that body could include a supernatural force within it. However, that is a little outside the scope of the rules. Within the rules, I don't think it would be a stretch for an epideromancer to change the structure of a pregnancy, or of the body that contains the fire, so that it would either not pass on the fire to the child, or simply that it would live on without the fire. Once the fire passes into a child, the problems that caused Surma to fade out and die are presumably physical (due to the loss of the supernatural element). As such, it seems quite easy for an epideromancer to fix the physical body of the dying semi-elemental so that it compensates for the loss of said elemental. As to Anthony being the Freak, that is an excellent point. It had not occurred to me, and would be a good jumping off point for someone to become an avatar of the Mystic Hermaphrodite. But, it is only a jumping off point. The mystic hermaphrodite is not just a single paradox, but embodies pretty much all paradoxes. And focuses very much on sexual paradoxes. The Freak is The Godwalker of the Mystic Hermaphrodite, so he can't just rely on a single paradox to fuel his closeness to the avatar. He has to embody it fully. Admittedly, I could see Anthony being so destroyed by Surma's death that he throws himself into curing Antimony. He goes into The Occult Underground and after many years of study and observation he could (using said science vs. magic as a beginning) embody all paradoxes and becomes an omnisexual paradox filled madman (i.e. The Freak). And although I agree that he has inevitably gained the number of failed self checks to become an adept, I'm not sure why he would gravitate toward Epideromancer. It does seem the closest fit for him in the core rulebook, but I'm not sure if I see the journey towards self harm. The central paradox focuses so much on the grating of self harm vs. creation, and I see him more as harming others. Well, that's not quite right, but I still feel it is not the perfect fit. I think he would create some new, personal school that would perfectly embody his paradox. Though he definitely seems the type to become an adept. I definitely agree that Comte de St. Germain could be multiple fellows running around. The rulebook explicitly states that he can sometimes appear as someone who has absolutely no knowledge of himself. My only problem is that Jones is so constant. She has existed for such a long time as the same exact form and I've always felt that St. Germain would flit in and out of our reality, constantly changing. It seems anathema for him to hold to one shape (even if it is in one of his innumerable incarnations) for such a long time. Although that is clearly a matter of personal canon. |
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