galileo
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Post by galileo on Aug 8, 2012 7:12:36 GMT
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sotha
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Post by sotha on Aug 8, 2012 7:16:15 GMT
Seems all right. I just wonder what Tom's comment is about. The guides? Or the humans being guided?
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Post by arf on Aug 8, 2012 7:20:04 GMT
Ysengrin leaves... achievement unlocked?
Now that we don't have eavesdroppers...
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Post by Eversist on Aug 8, 2012 7:20:35 GMT
Seems all right. I just wonder what Tom's comment is about. The guides? Or the humans being guided? Without spelling it out for you, pretty sure he's referring to the second panel.
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galileo
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Post by galileo on Aug 8, 2012 7:21:11 GMT
Maybe it's as simple as the guides usher them INTO the ether? Completing the cycle. The more I think about it, the more it reminds me of Buddhism.
Some people take many lives to reach Nirvana (through Enlightenment), some less...others linger in between, but eventually everyone returns to The Universe (like, universal energy).
Either way, this has been a very enlightening chapter thus far.
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Post by rafk on Aug 8, 2012 7:23:35 GMT
OK, so "I do not exist" was just hyperbole to make a point. Got it.
Also, it isn't "belief creates existence", but rather than the ether is built out of man's imagination/soul (not clear which) and all Coyote's power comes from the ether. So without the mind of man, Coyote is nothing.
I can indeed see how this would annoy Ysengrin.
I wonder if, in Annie, Ysengrin sees his perfect future: the ether continuing to exist thanks to forest-friendly halfbreeds, while mundane forest-chopping humans are done away with. Or maybe he has become a nihilist and in Annie he sees a weapon to blow up the world. Who knows? Other than Coyote...
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Post by SpitefulFox on Aug 8, 2012 7:24:35 GMT
So, are psychopomps products of human imagination? Who was there to guide the first humans? D:
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galileo
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Post by galileo on Aug 8, 2012 7:28:27 GMT
I wonder if, in Annie, Ysengrin sees his perfect future: the ether continuing to exist thanks to forest-friendly halfbreeds, while mundane forest-chopping humans are done away with. Or maybe he has become a nihilist and in Annie he sees a weapon to blow up the world. Who knows? Other than Coyote... I tend to think his mind isn't quite made up yet as to what he thinks of her. They've definitely had a couple touching moments, and a whole summer to bond in their mutual appreciation for silent introspection. I think he's warming up! I HOPE he's warming up! D:
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Post by contrition on Aug 8, 2012 7:30:26 GMT
So, if "everyone is brought back into the ether" is true in the sense of consciousness, could it be that Surma's soul still exists in some sense? Annie seems to be considering it, and thinking about the events of the previous chapter, it's possible Anthony may have thought of that as well, possibly trying to use her as a bridge if the phoenix theory is correct.
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galileo
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there are plenty of spiders!
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Post by galileo on Aug 8, 2012 7:35:01 GMT
So, if "everyone is brought back into the ether" is true in the sense of consciousness, could it be that Surma's soul still exists in some sense? Annie seems to be considering it, and thinking about the events of the previous chapter, it's possible Anthony may have thought of that as well, possibly trying to use her as a bridge if the phoenix theory is correct. This is still confusing to me, because if they have the same soul...what of Surma really went into the ether? I'm still shaky on the theory behind that. As for souls existing in the ether intact...I always tend to think of souls that return to an overarching energy gathering, like I picture "the ether", I think of them as entirely integrated into the collective. Like the Borg or something, but without the creepy do-it-yourself computerized zombies.
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Post by GK Sierra on Aug 8, 2012 7:50:57 GMT
OK, so "I do not exist" was just hyperbole to make a point. Got it. Also, it isn't "belief creates existence", but rather than the ether is built out of man's imagination/soul (not clear which) and all Coyote's power comes from the ether. So without the mind of man, Coyote is nothing. I can indeed see how this would annoy Ysengrin. I wonder if, in Annie, Ysengrin sees his perfect future: the ether continuing to exist thanks to forest-friendly halfbreeds, while mundane forest-chopping humans are done away with. Or maybe he has become a nihilist and in Annie he sees a weapon to blow up the world. Who knows? Other than Coyote... Yeah, that's kinda what I thought, hyperbole or simply a lame joke. I am most interested in his conclusion that humans are now the most powerful creatures in the world. It would indeed be embarrassing for ole Yiss that his "perfect creation, immeasurable in its wonder" is the direct product of humans. The guides are probably either an inherent feature of the system itself, sustained by human contributions to the ether, or both. Now, are we going to get to see this afterlife? Does this mean Antimony is going to break on through to the other side?
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Post by contrition on Aug 8, 2012 7:51:17 GMT
I guess it comes down to what the ether really is, then, which as far as I can remember has never really been elaborated on except in the most vague, abstract terms.
Really, I could see that even being the reason why the Court is interested in looking into it. Plus, since the ether as Coyote describes it seems to be formed of or defined by the consciousness of man, the ability to influence that definition (etheric sciences) may end up having some powerful connotations, as others have suggested.
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galileo
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Post by galileo on Aug 8, 2012 7:55:41 GMT
Yeah, it kind of makes people who can manipulate ether sound like mind-cannibals Uh-oh.
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Post by GK Sierra on Aug 8, 2012 7:57:29 GMT
I guess it comes down to what the ether really is, then, which as far as I can remember has never really been elaborated on except in the most vague, abstract terms. Really, I could see that even being the reason why the Court is interested in looking into it. Plus, since the ether as Coyote describes it seems to be formed of or defined by the consciousness of man, the ability to influence that definition (etheric sciences) may end up having some powerful connotations, as others have suggested. The language that has been used to describe it would suggest that it is a sort of energy field akin to electromagnetism in that it has an ambient density, it stores potential energy, has a "charge" that can be imparted, and that it causes localized distortions when the field is bunched up via someone's natural etheric ability or conducted by technological means, as we see the Court do in its experiments with the collection stations. I believe Jack also said it can be "purified", so it also has different levels of charge, sort of like volts, amps and watts. Either that, or its just fuckin' magic. Who knows. ;D
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Post by Lightice on Aug 8, 2012 8:02:19 GMT
Hmmm...Coyote's explanation reminds me of the modern humanistic mystics; the Thelemites, the Wicca, the Satanists and so on. The uniting thread between them is that they see the divinity stem from humanity, rather than the other way around. I still wonder just how independent entity Coyote is in all this. Is he just the sum of all the trickery in the human minds, or an independent agent that came forth from those emotions, but exists in the Ether with no need for further human interference to retain his power?
In many animistic cultures, the dead are considered to slowly fade away into generic ancestral spirits as their memory fades from the minds of the living. They are no longer seen as individuals, but rather a unified force that protects the tribe. Coyote's statements seem to formalize this belief in the GKC universe; the dead are around for awhile, and then slowly fade to the background Ether, from which new spirits then form over time. It's like the cycle of life here on Earth; new living matter forms from the dead stuff. There are no truly immortal souls in GKC, it would seem.
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Post by Belrisa on Aug 8, 2012 8:16:53 GMT
Coyote said "mind" and not "soul." That could be an important distinction. For example, Annie may have Surma's soul, but she certainly doesn't have her mother's mind. She doesn't have any of her mother's memories, they don't think about things in the same way, and when she tries to emulate her mother (what she did to Jack) she fails miserably.
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galileo
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Post by galileo on Aug 8, 2012 8:20:04 GMT
Either that, or its just fuckin' magic. Who knows. ;D ...don't you mean ETHER way??? See what I did there?! Also, This reminds me of an Ani DiFranco lyric, "...and God will radiate out from within us, instead of this bullshit from above." I think this is the theme of the chapter; humans create gods in their minds, and whether they actually have power (like Coyote) or if it's symbolic towards our world, the mind is a powerful and awe-some thing. Perhaps it's also a bit telling of Coyote that he would distance himself from the human mind and all its creations [the Court]. He might need some separation to avoid an existential crisis! Or maybe it's as simple as posturing. From far away, someone can seem bigger than they really are, while up close you can examine them and find weaknesses. I think I'm reaching with that one...but it's so much fun to theorize!
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galileo
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there are plenty of spiders!
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Post by galileo on Aug 8, 2012 8:24:37 GMT
Coyote said "mind" and not "soul." That could be an important distinction. For example, Annie may have Surma's soul, but she certainly doesn't have her mother's mind. She doesn't have any of her mother's memories, they don't think about things in the same way, and when she tries to emulate her mother (what she did to Jack) she fails miserably. OH! This is a good point! It is a common belief in many faiths, that with death, your soul leaves your body and your personality and/or your memories are stripped away when you reach heaven or move on. A belief that the soul is like a sacred battery! For instance: when a GameBoy's rechargeable battery is drained, the game goes away, and the energy source needs to be recharged...but a new game must be started once it's ready to be put back in! It's like reincarnation! With a linear model, just replace rechargeable with regular batteries, and in the end they get recycled. (alright, I'm done hogging this thread, bed time for me, jeez I just looked at the time. Have fun!)
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Post by ctso74 on Aug 8, 2012 8:45:53 GMT
So, are psychopomps products of human imagination? Who was there to guide the first humans? D: I was wondering that myself. Maybe, the complexity of the Ether evolved along with the complexity of animals. Also, I was wondering if robots have imagination ...
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notacat
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Post by notacat on Aug 8, 2012 9:30:25 GMT
Seems all right. I just wonder what Tom's comment is about. The guides? Or the humans being guided? I think he's referring to "[t]he boy and his family" from the previous page's comment...which in turn refers back to the fire-bug kid Annie was called to help yonks ago. I need to get back to working on the Wikia, I should be able to recall exactly where this was
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Post by Lightice on Aug 8, 2012 10:27:09 GMT
Coyote said "mind" and not "soul." That could be an important distinction. For example, Annie may have Surma's soul, but she certainly doesn't have her mother's mind. She doesn't have any of her mother's memories, they don't think about things in the same way, and when she tries to emulate her mother (what she did to Jack) she fails miserably. I suspect that Tom is making a point by avoiding the word "soul", since it has lots of connotations that don't fit in his worldbuilding. For example, souls are typically described as immortal, while Coyote is of the opinion that there is no such thing as immortality. Hence why Annie is described to have Surma's fire, her essence, not her soul. Especially since it sounds like Coyote's insinuating there there's still something left of Surma in the Ether. It almost certainly refers to Surma. She's there in the second panel, after all.
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Magpie
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Post by Magpie on Aug 8, 2012 12:59:06 GMT
This makes me wonder about the proper way to "defeat" Coyote, should it come to that.
If enough humans truly believed Coyote to be weak, harmless and of no real importance, would that actually manage to affect him?
Or are the generations of stories and perceptions of him enough to keep him so powerful? Where is the cut-off? Is there a cut-off?
Or is it now just a self-sustaining power, where previous beliefs about an etheric being make him powerful, and as he displays this power, more current people believe in his power? Perpetuum Coyote?!
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Earin
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Post by Earin on Aug 8, 2012 13:03:29 GMT
This makes me wonder about the proper way to "defeat" Coyote, should it come to that. If enough humans truly believed Coyote to be weak, harmless and of no real importance, would that actually manage to affect him? Or are the generations of stories and perceptions of him enough to keep him so powerful? Where is the cut-off? Is there a cut-off? Or is it now just a self-sustaining power, where previous beliefs about an etheric being make him powerful, and as he displays this power, more current people believe in his power? Perpetuum Coyote?!Also, would simply believing hard enough in [something that can kill/defeat Coyote] work?
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Post by OrzBrain on Aug 8, 2012 13:47:08 GMT
In many animistic cultures, the dead are considered to slowly fade away into generic ancestral spirits as their memory fades from the minds of the living. They are no longer seen as individuals, but rather a unified force that protects the tribe. Coyote's statements seem to formalize this belief in the GKC universe; the dead are around for awhile, and then slowly fade to the background Ether, from which new spirits then form over time. It's like the cycle of life here on Earth; new living matter forms from the dead stuff. There are no truly immortal souls in GKC, it would seem. That is very interesting. A magical universe setting which lacks a real afterlife is not something I think I've come across in fiction very often. It also means that the ultimate goal of every person with enough power (like Annie) in the Gunnerkrigg Court universe should be physical immortality...
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Post by q3 on Aug 8, 2012 14:04:23 GMT
But Ysengrin is standing right there!
...No, my bad, that's just a tree.
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Post by Marnath on Aug 8, 2012 14:05:37 GMT
So, if "everyone is brought back into the ether" is true in the sense of consciousness, could it be that Surma's soul still exists in some sense? Annie seems to be considering it, and thinking about the events of the previous chapter, it's possible Anthony may have thought of that as well, possibly trying to use her as a bridge if the phoenix theory is correct. Surma's soul still exists, yeah. It goes by the name Antimony now. I personally assume the core essence of who she is has not changed since her bloodline first mingled with Fire. I'm picturing a long line of nearly identical red haired girls stretching way back into the past. Also, last three panels? Coyote, you are such an insensitive clod. Never change. But Ysengrin is standing right there! ...No, my bad, that's just a tree. I laughed. That's a good one.
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Post by Dvandaemon on Aug 8, 2012 15:15:36 GMT
Is this another: how others see him, how he sees himself and how he truly is projection? OK, so "I do not exist" was just hyperbole to make a point. Got it. Also, it isn't "belief creates existence", but rather than the ether is built out of man's imagination/soul (not clear which) and all Coyote's power comes from the ether. So without the mind of man, Coyote is nothing. I can indeed see how this would annoy Ysengrin. I wonder if, in Annie, Ysengrin sees his perfect future: the ether continuing to exist thanks to forest-friendly halfbreeds, while mundane forest-chopping humans are done away with. Or maybe he has become a nihilist and in Annie he sees a weapon to blow up the world. Who knows? Other than Coyote... Yeah, that's kinda what I thought, hyperbole or simply a lame joke. I am most interested in his conclusion that humans are now the most powerful creatures in the world. It would indeed be embarrassing for ole Yiss that his "perfect creation, immeasurable in its wonder" is the direct product of humans. The guides are probably either an inherent feature of the system itself, sustained by human contributions to the ether, or both. Now, are we going to get to see this afterlife? Does this mean Antimony is going to break on through to the other side? The way I'm seeing it is that humans would naturally be subsumed into the ether upon death, eventually human intellect impressed sapience on this physical law, manifesting it into the individual psychopomps.
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Post by GK Sierra on Aug 8, 2012 15:19:16 GMT
Is this another: how others see him, how he sees himself and how he truly is projection? Oh, well spotted! I think it is.
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Post by Dvandaemon on Aug 8, 2012 15:26:15 GMT
In many animistic cultures, the dead are considered to slowly fade away into generic ancestral spirits as their memory fades from the minds of the living. They are no longer seen as individuals, but rather a unified force that protects the tribe. Coyote's statements seem to formalize this belief in the GKC universe; the dead are around for awhile, and then slowly fade to the background Ether, from which new spirits then form over time. It's like the cycle of life here on Earth; new living matter forms from the dead stuff. There are no truly immortal souls in GKC, it would seem. That is very interesting. A magical universe setting which lacks a real afterlife is not something I think I've come across in fiction very often. It also means that the ultimate goal of every person with enough power (like Annie) in the Gunnerkrigg Court universe should be physical immortality... Should it be? Is it a part of the human disease that immortality is the ultimate goal?
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Post by blahzor on Aug 8, 2012 15:31:19 GMT
So, if "everyone is brought back into the ether" is true in the sense of consciousness, could it be that Surma's soul still exists in some sense? Annie seems to be considering it, and thinking about the events of the previous chapter, it's possible Anthony may have thought of that as well, possibly trying to use her as a bridge if the phoenix theory is correct. This is still confusing to me, because if they have the same soul...what of Surma really went into the ether? I'm still shaky on the theory behind that. As for souls existing in the ether intact...I always tend to think of souls that return to an overarching energy gathering, like I picture "the ether", I think of them as entirely integrated into the collective. Like the Borg or something, but without the creepy do-it-yourself computerized zombies. can go like this, since the ether is like the "ocean" and everyone gets returned to it. It's "impossible" to find someone returned to it due to how large and possibly blending everything is in it. Anthony could be trying to use Annie as a trace to find Surma in that giant ocean of ether
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