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Post by idonotlikepeas on Sept 27, 2010 17:09:00 GMT
From Formspring (not my question, but I thought it was appropriate):
GC is not a comic prone to cartoon bad guys. For a while the closest we had was Ysengrin, but even he has shown, for lack of a better word, humanity in his most recent appearance with Annie. People do things for reasons. They may be good or bad reasons, and the things themselves may be good or bad, but nobody is out there in the GC universe eating children out of pure evil. (That we've heard of.)
There are three villains we see here: Diego, Young, and Steadman. Perhaps we should talk about them?
Diego's motivations have been explored in detail. And they're human and understandable and wholly reprehensible. Spurned by the woman he's in love with, he conceives of a way to arrange her death as revenge and spends the rest of his life tormented by it and shifting the blame onto others. I'm not going to spend a lot of time talking about this because the comic has already done so and because I don't find anything admirable in there to talk about.
Young and Steadman, though. We know that they're "protecting the Court". In this modern time, their plan seems not only morally reprehensible but completely nonsensical. Protecting the Court from what? Trees? Goofy comic relief? I think this is a very intentional thing; we're introduced to their motivations through the lens of Diego's obsession and right after being told about the insane actions they're taking to limit the role of nature at the Court. I would not be surprised if we were to hear more about this later. But I'd like to delve into things a little bit now.
We know that Coyote has recently arrived. The Court is still relatively young; the villains we're discussing seem to have been present at its founding (although that was an artistic representation and may not be entirely accurate). We know that he scored the earth and created the river to separate the Court from the rest of the forest. We know that relations are tense. What don't we know? One thing: Jeanne is a soldier in service to the Court. Why do they feel they need to create and maintain a body of armed soldiers to protect themselves? Is this irrational? Or is there more to it now that Coyote and Ysengrin have arrived?
We don't know if Ysengrin hates humans at this point, but if he does it's quite likely that he and his people have actually killed humans in the Forest. We also know that Dryads can travel through trees and carry other beings with them, and if that's the case, cutting down all the trees in the area suddenly makes a bit more sense. The people who live at the Court are probably afraid of Ysengrin and likely afraid of the forest people. And they're certainly going to be afraid of Coyote. Coyote is, to put it bluntly, a dick. He's willing to harm anyone or anything in whatever way he likes for his own amusement. He's already demonstrated his considerable power by cutting a giant hole in the ground.
Let's take Young first. This is the environment in which he exists. He's sworn himself to the duty of protecting the Court from any threat, and suddenly there's a god hanging out on his doorstep with a hostile army and he doesn't know what to do. He asks all of his closest advisers and most powerful followers for their help, and Diego falls into one or both of those two categories. Either at the time he's asked, or later, Diego conceives of a plan which will take revenge on Jeanne but also will protect the Court from attack, and he presents this to Young. This is Young's choice: sacrifice one person and seal off the walls so that the god outside won't come in and kill everyone on a whim, or let her live and potentially doom everyone inside, especially if she cracks and decides to share secrets with her lover.
Young seems to me like someone who's used to command, and when you send a hundred soldiers into a battle, some of them are not coming back. You know that and you send them anyway, because if you don't, nobody survives. Think of it from that perspective: for him, the cost is the life of one person who has, as a soldier, already pledged her life in defense of the Court, and the result may be the salvation of hundreds or thousands of lives. It's a hell of a choice to have to make, but in his shoes could you really say for certain that you wouldn't do the same thing?
Now let's look at Steadman. Some of the same things apply to him. He can't be unaware of the danger. Hell, maybe someone he knows has been killed. We have no idea what chain of events set this all off. He doesn't have the same weight of responsibility that Young has, but instead he has a weight of duty. He may or may not be a soldier himself, but he's clearly put himself under Young's command in some capacity and he feels a duty towards him and towards the Court to offer his skills for its protection. Is he unaware of the moral dimension of what he's doing? It doesn't seem that he is, based on his line about weighty tasks and the expression on his face when he betrays Jeanne after sending her letter. But he believes he has to do it anyway.
Does that make it all okay? I tend to think not. It's still wrong. But I think one can see how the Court could have come to this point and why they acted as they did. And one wonders what the result would be if Annie did manage to free Jeanne's spirit; after all, Ysengrin and Coyote are still out there. What do the rest of you think?
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Post by atteSmythe on Sept 27, 2010 17:35:32 GMT
One nitpick: I don't think it's clear that Jeanne was a soldier. She was a warrior, but those are different things. The rapier is a court weapon, not one for the battle field. Soldier was just Reynardine's guess, if I recall. In terms of the story, I think it's unlikely that she was one who'd pledged life and liberty to the Court. I don't think she was Young's to command.
I think one of the themes is definitely how groups of people will do things that are worse than any one of them would do individually. Rather than one person having to completely shatter their morals to do something reprehensible, each only has to bend their ideals a small bit. The end result is the same, but the personal responsibility is 'distributed.'
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Post by idonotlikepeas on Sept 27, 2010 17:52:13 GMT
More from Formspring:
I should have mentioned those in the OP, sorry. I know not everyone reads Tom's Formspring stuff.
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Post by atteSmythe on Sept 27, 2010 17:58:34 GMT
Ah, yeah, I don't follow the Formspring. This chapter's answers, in particular, have made me glad not to. I know it's Tom's story, and presumably what he says there is canon. However, when things like this aren't stated in the narrative proper, I prefer to extrapolate consistent explanations. Ahwell, I suppose the second half of my comment still stands.
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Post by evilanagram on Sept 27, 2010 18:28:01 GMT
I think you did a good job explaining Young's reasoning and justification for his actions. However, Young's reasoning was flawed. What he saw as a hostile army, may not have seen itself as an army at all. Coyote, as far as I can tell, was content to separate the Court from the Forest. And why not? The Forest had no need to fear the Court so long as the Annan Waters separated them, and they had no reason to attack the Court at all. Coyote may do anything that amuses him, but there's no reason to think mass slaughter would amuse him. Young and the rest were paranoid and let their fear drive them to commit abominable acts. This motivation mirrors the motivation behind many acts of ethnic cleansing and genocide throughout history and in the modern day. Letting fear rule your actions does not excuse you of your sins.
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Post by q3 on Sept 27, 2010 19:47:53 GMT
Well, Young's fear would have had two parts: that the forest could wreak havoc on the Court, and that the forest would in fact do so. We know that the first part is true. I don't think we have enough information yet to evaluate the second part; remember, by the time Coyote and co. arrived, there was already a terrible squabble, and we don't appear to have met any of the forest's leaders from that time. If the forest's prior leaders had been aggressive or vindictive, and it had not become apparent yet that Coyote was taking over and would be relatively peaceful, it would have been foolish for Young not to prepare against an attack that could bring some serious firepower down on his home. (And keep in mind, the forest hasn't been entirely peaceful since then. Unless those bound dogs are only delivering flowers, I suppose.)
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Post by hal9000 on Sept 27, 2010 20:49:23 GMT
I think you did a good job explaining Young's reasoning and justification for his actions. However, Young's reasoning was flawed. What he saw as a hostile army, may not have seen itself as an army at all. Coyote, as far as I can tell, was content to separate the Court from the Forest. And why not? The Forest had no need to fear the Court so long as the Annan Waters separated them, and they had no reason to attack the Court at all. Coyote may do anything that amuses him, but there's no reason to think mass slaughter would amuse him. Young and the rest were paranoid and let their fear drive them to commit abominable acts. This motivation mirrors the motivation behind many acts of ethnic cleansing and genocide throughout history and in the modern day. Letting fear rule your actions does not excuse you of your sins. We don't know with any accuracy what the forest was doing at around that time (beyond the fact that there was a conflict, and that Coyote created the ravine). Knowing Ysengrin, there could very well have been a good reason for the founders' fear of being attacked.
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Post by shouqi on Sept 27, 2010 21:11:47 GMT
There's a fair bit of speculation here, but that's the fun of it all, eh?
I'd have to guess that they all have their uses. Diego, for all of his faults, was a genius without parallel in his field and industrious to boot. Those are qualities that can't be disregarded.
We don't know enough about Young, Steadman, Artilleryman, the one fat guy, and others to comment comprehensively, only to say that they must have had their reasons, and nobody in Gunnerkrigg Court appears to be dastardly for its own sake. Except maybe Coyote. He's kind of a dick.
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Post by penguinfactory on Sept 27, 2010 21:31:42 GMT
I think we have too little information to go on at this point. I will just say that Tom seems not to want to paint either side as entirely evil, and with the recent revelations about Jeanne painting the Court in a very unsympathetic light, I've been waiting for the other shoe to drop for awhile. It would not surprise me at all to learn that Coyote omitted details from his version of events.
By the way, I don't think I've ever said this on the forum but I really love how the Court is being portrayed. I completely didn't expect the story to go in that direction when I started reading it.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Sept 27, 2010 23:11:01 GMT
...and nobody in Gunnerkrigg Court appears to be dastardly for its own sake. Except maybe Coyote. He's kind of a dick. I am withholding judgment on Coyote. In at least one native American story I've read Coyote got his vast array of powers from the Great Spirit so that he could keep the humans' attitude toward the Old People correct. There may be no method to his madness, or better to say capriciousness, but in his role as the Trickster he does appear to be serving that purpose. His actions prevented the humans from taming the Animals in Coyote's view, whatever that means. As a side-note I wonder if Mort serves in a similar capacity by scaring people. Diego's motivations have been explored in detail. And they're human and understandable and wholly reprehensible. Spurned by the woman he's in love with, he conceives of a way to arrange her death as revenge and spends the rest of his life tormented by it and shifting the blame onto others. I'm not going to spend a lot of time talking about this because the comic has already done so and because I don't find anything admirable in there to talk about. I would add something: Between "Jeanne's Tomb" and the likeness of himself within, the collection of miniature automaton/robots he gave to Jeanne, and the whole revenge plot I think we can safely say that Diego had a fondness for grand gestures. So when I think of the character Diego I think of emotional immaturity and a huge but brittle ego, fueled by his genius but delicate as a rice-paper balloon. The notable lack of Diego in the latter half of Jeanne's recap tells me that Jeanne has no idea how thoroughly she crushed Diego when she spurned him. By no means am I blaming Jeanne or excusing Diego; I am just pointing out that it was another grand misunderstanding within the comic. At the time Diego perhaps saw himself as a righteous avenger of his own heart, later he saw himself as a victim of Young's machinations. Immature people often see their lives as stories wherein they are always the righteous heroes or innocent victims. But I think one can see how the Court could have come to this point and why they acted as they did. I posted a similar concept here in another thread and asked what people might do if they found themselves in that set of circumstances. I got one, possibly two, replies that yes they might do something similar to what the Court did. I'll add another yes as well. The rationale, if one beyond expediency and group survival is needed, is that Jeanne is a soldier planning to desert. Period punishments for such things included branding, flogging, and/or summary execution. What they did to Jeanne is somewhat worse than those things but there is precedent. It may help to strip the romance from the situation. Imagine that you are the commander of a forward fire base in some conflict zone. Your position is somewhat precarious and you have a number of non-combatants under your protection. You discover that one of your soldiers has been carrying on a long-distance romance with one of the enemy. Your switching systems operator comes to you and says that an opportunity exists to trap and destroy enough of the enemy forces to make your position secure if you allow the soldier in question enough slack to attempt to meet with his/her lover undisturbed and desert. There will be a sizable enemy escort force at a known place and time, if you allow the meeting you can call in artillery on all of them. Cost to you: One soldier who was going to abandon his/her guard duty and desert anyway. Benefit to you: Your whole command is secured. It seems like a good deal even if you do know the operator was a spurned love interest of the soldier and might have a grudge. Sorry to be unromantic but I like living, and I like keeping those people important to me alive as well. I know, it's not a perfect analogy but I trust you get the idea why I think Young and Steadman didn't have much sympathy for Jeanne. And one wonders what the result would be if Annie did manage to free Jeanne's spirit; after all, Ysengrin and Coyote are still out there. What do the rest of you think? There is reason to believe the Court would be in some danger if Jeanne no longer defended the Annan. If I were a trickster-god and there was a huge funny place I hadn't been allowed to explore for centuries, and my cousin was living there somewhere, I would be sorely tempted to disguise myself and do some recon. And as others have mentioned, Ysengrin is a General and he does have something against humans. Coyote may or may not have forbidden him from direct action but I doubt he could cover every possibility, so if Ysengrin wanted to make trouble he probably could by proxy. if the shadow-people can leap from shadow to shadow they could cross at any point except the bridge. Any remaining shadow-people stranded within the Court could escape and take any secrets they learned over the years with them, and any number of others could infiltrate and get up to all sorts of mischief by controlling robots and computers. If they were subtle the Court probably wouldn't catch on for a good while. A few experiments mysteriously blowing up here, a couple train accidents there and you could deliver a decent-sized body count of critical humans. Also there's other creatures in the Woods. I doubt Coyote would know about every individual Forest denizen with a grudge and the ability to slip across the gulf and do some damage. Considering how dimly lit and empty much of the Court is, if even a small force got in there I don't think they'd easily get them out again. The saving grace of course is that the Annan has been uncrossable for so long I doubt Ysengrin wastes shadow-men testing it regularly. I see no reason he'd know that Jeanne had been freed unless someone tells him, or unless she somehow goes out with a big etheric light-show. On the other hand, it would make for a more exciting story if the Forest knew that the Court was unguarded... And here's where Antimony's dad may enter the picture. I have the feeling he's been planning some counter-measures for just such a circumstance... possibly extreme counter-measures that the rest of the Court would frown on. No worries, though. Antimony's job as medium is to make sure conflict like I've been describing doesn't happen. It may take her a couple books but I'm sure she'll get there eventually.
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Post by evilanagram on Sept 28, 2010 2:45:52 GMT
The big problem with your scenarios is that the Court and the Forest are not an active combat zone. There's no evidence of violence between the Forest and the Court at when Jeanne was killed, just passive aggressive vandalism. The leaders were operating out of the paranoid assumption that there would be violence, as are your theories. The major problem with Gunnerkrigg and Gillitie is that both sides are convinced that the other means them harm, and so they act out. Creating a more permeable boundary between the sides would give them the chance to see how similar they are to each other. Coyote might play pranks, but there's no evidence that he would find the wholesale slaughter of humans to be amusing. After all, there aren't any stories of Coyote massacring people and giggling about it.
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Post by Mezzaphor on Sept 28, 2010 3:09:15 GMT
Coyote might play pranks, but there's no evidence that he would find the wholesale slaughter of humans to be amusing. There is also precious little evidence that he wouldn't.
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Post by jayne on Sept 28, 2010 3:53:10 GMT
Coyote might play pranks, but there's no evidence that he would find the wholesale slaughter of humans to be amusing. There is also precious little evidence that he wouldn't. I would like to present as evidence, this simple concept: Corpses are dull... Tricksters need an audience.... they need someone to trick... a dead thing is no longer interesting. What fun is that?
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Post by hal9000 on Sept 28, 2010 4:05:23 GMT
Coyote might play pranks, but there's no evidence that he would find the wholesale slaughter of humans to be amusing. There is also precious little evidence that he wouldn't. Yep. And with that in mind, I don't think anyone would want to leave their fate to the whims of a capricious and amoral god with a potentially-genocidal sidekick. I mean, look at recent history; we've gone to extreme lengths to protect ourselves against nations ruled by mere people, whose motivations, intentions and basic rationality were not generally in question. Coyote is an inscrutable lovecraftian horror compared to them.
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Post by Mezzaphor on Sept 28, 2010 5:14:57 GMT
There is also precious little evidence that he wouldn't. I would like to present as evidence, this simple concept: Corpses are dull... Tricksters need an audience.... they need someone to trick... a dead thing is no longer interesting. What fun is that? And Coyote already has an audience in the denizens of the Wood. It's reasonable to assume that he would protect this audience from a threat, say, someone trying to tame them. I agree with you that there's not enough evidence to call Coyote a clear and present threat to the Court, but I think it's very understandable if the first generation felt otherwise. Me, I can't help but wonder if Coyote found the Court vs Forest fight amusing and was actually trying to prolong it.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Sept 28, 2010 9:09:22 GMT
Some more thoughts: The lack of evidence of hostilities coming from the Forest side since Jeanne died does not necessarily indicate that if the barrier across the Annan had never been created that the Court would be just as peaceful as we know it.
Also: I would suggest that the creation of the Annan by Coyote was seen as something like the deployment of a weapon of mass destruction would be today. It could be seen as the benign creation of a barrier in hindsight but it could also be seen as a warning shot. Like we are uncertain today, it is possible that the Court's founders were also unclear exactly what set Coyote off.
It was against such a backdrop that Jeanne set about her escape from the Court.
The whole idea of a soldier is to have some people give up some liberties and rights in order to create an organization that defends the society. In return they receive weapons, training, and a specially-honored place in that society. Even in peacetime desertion is frowned on and seen as a casting-aside of honor; while there may have been no active hostilities going on at the exact moment Jeanne decided to leave the Court I think it was inarguably a period of high tension when soldiers were needed.
Would the example in my previous post have been better if it were set in Germany right after the Iron Curtain had gone up? There are some parallels with the WMD and the barrier and two sides that had been allied but now were not. Being a child of the Cold War that was my first inclination but I thought that sort of scenario might have been harder for younger people to relate to.
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Eddy
New Member
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Post by Eddy on Sept 28, 2010 10:45:19 GMT
I'm really interested in what caused the tensions in the first place. Once that's figured out, it might be a little bit clearer why the animosity built up to the point it did, where the founders of Gunnerkrigg found it necessary to sacrifice one of their own to protect themselves.
Coyote said that the squabbling was because the humans attempted to tame the creatures of Gillitie Wood, but he's not exactly the most reliable source. Perhaps it was just a natural consequence of the differences between the forest and the Court. Perhaps Coyote actively encouraged the suspicions. It's really hard to say at this point due to the lack of information on that time period. But going from the peace of the founding of the Court to where the Court killed an inhabitant of the Wood in cold blood? Something had to have happened to cause that.
In any case, the founders did have good reason to be alarmed. The tensions were already high between the Court and the Wood, and having a living god batting for the other side probably didn't help matters any, especially after said living god tore a giant ravine between the two.
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Post by evilanagram on Sept 28, 2010 13:08:54 GMT
Coyote might play pranks, but there's no evidence that he would find the wholesale slaughter of humans to be amusing. There is also precious little evidence that he wouldn't. There's the fact that he's lived alongside humans for centuries and hasn't engaged in mass murder yet. And it's not like there hasn't been plenty of examples for him to use in that time.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Sept 28, 2010 17:46:43 GMT
True, the character of Coyote in traditional myths isn't a figure of mass-murder or genocide. If anything Coyote is portrayed as helpful to those people who are facing existential threats because of starvation or dangers (though if you pay close attention more often than not he's helping the Old People in those stories and not humans).
On the other hand Coyote isn't a pacifist by any stretch of the imagination. He is portrayed as a warrior, a monster-slayer, a hunter (sometimes of sentient creatures) and in at least one story I recall, a murderer.
In the greater scheme of things Coyote is a disruptor of any established order and a creator of new order from chaos. He is paradoxical because in bringing the sort of change he brings, he is also a figure of stasis. The ascendancy of any new organization like the Court would give the traditional mythic Coyote much displeasure.
I am not sure how much of the mythic Coyote exists in Mr. Siddell's version; I believe that because the Court is an established human hierarchy Coyote has an interest in tweaking them once in a while, but if they are a failure in their foundational goals he would generally leave them alone. However, if they are succeeding in creating human Progress then I'm pretty sure Coyote would become their enemy. Simply put, a systematic human intrusion on divine territories with Court sciences in an "endeavor to become god" would upset the balance of Coyote's world.
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Post by idonotlikepeas on Sept 28, 2010 18:07:55 GMT
There are a couple of stories where Coyote kill people. I recall one where he murders his wife because he wants to haul her body around on his back to show how devoted he is to her. I do not recall him ever engaging in mass-murder, but he's not too concerned about killing people if it amuses him.
Viewed in human terms, Coyote is essentially a sociopath. It's not that he's necessarily malevolent, he just doesn't appear to have the usual moral restrictions people develop over time. And if I were the leader of a community, a completely amoral being with godlike powers is pretty much the last thing I would want living next door to me.
Keep in mind, though, that it isn't just Coyote. Ysengrin is still dangerous and might be actively attempting to kill everyone depending on what his stance is at this point vis-a-vis humans (we don't know when he started hating them). Reynard isn't exactly Chuckles the Clown, either; his most famous set of stories are from his trial, and his crimes range from petty theft to out-and-out murder.
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Post by jayne on Sept 28, 2010 18:27:25 GMT
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Sept 28, 2010 19:02:53 GMT
Here is another story of how Coyote brought eternal death. [edit] I suppose I should also add that in some myth cycles Coyote is a Satan-like figure who supplanted the creator-god in the hearts of mankind. I don't think that applies to the discussion of GC, though. [/edit]
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Post by jayne on Sept 28, 2010 19:35:30 GMT
I'm more on the side of the forest. They were just hanging out, being groovy, doing their etheric thing then these PEOPLE move in, learn their secrets, then built this super duper "no beasties allowed" clubhouse.
I think if the humans had just left, Ysengrin would revert to his wolf form and live crankily ever after. "You regional fairies keep out of my yard!!"
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Post by todd on Sept 28, 2010 22:18:57 GMT
And we don't know yet why the humans came to the woods. I still suspect that it was something more than "frightened villagers trying to get out of the way of warring armies" - mere refugees would have probably left as soon as the fighting was over rather than staying. I certainly don't think it a coincidence that the place they went to was the home of the Bismuth Seed.
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Post by jayne on Sept 28, 2010 22:35:36 GMT
According to Diego, they came for " a better life of advancement and safety" Diego is treated as an equal by Young. He's right there in the middle of things at the beginning. It is my opinion that Young would only treat someone like Diego with such respect because he needed something from Diego. Young wants something and Diego can make it work. Young could have easily manipulated Diego by promising new technologies and safety! (He's a coward after all.) Edit: Aw hell... I bet you Young promised Diego he could win Jeanne's affections... I bet that was part of the deal... I don't like Young very much.
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Post by evilanagram on Sept 28, 2010 22:47:08 GMT
Diego wasn't talking about coming to the Court in that page; he was talking about the Court's plans after Coyote carved the Annan Waters.
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Post by jayne on Sept 28, 2010 22:53:11 GMT
Diego wasn't talking about coming to the Court in that page; he was talking about the Court's plans after Coyote carved the Annan Waters. Yes but it sounds like he's parroting something he's been told... Young: "Diego, my good man.. come with us... we've found this land of wondrous power and, with your help, we can bend that power to our purposes! Imagine, a land of advancement and security. You can't pass up a deal like that... everything you've ever wanted.... " "Oh yes, there are also many beautiful young women coming to help us settle... there's Jeanne now... so young and fresh.... she'd be so impressed by your inventiveness... don't you think?"
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Post by Casey on Sept 28, 2010 23:17:08 GMT
Advancement and security doesn't pop to mind for me when picturing a wild magical forest. Sorry, I'm pretty sure he was referring to the Court there, indeed drawing references to that which made it -different- from the Forest.
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Post by jayne on Sept 28, 2010 23:26:22 GMT
Advancement and security doesn't pop to mind for me when picturing a wild magical forest. Sorry, I'm pretty sure he was referring to the Court there, indeed drawing references to that which made it -different- from the Forest. I do mean the court... Young wasn't promising the forest to Diego... he was promising the court as he envisioned it. BUT Young needed Diego to make the court as he envisioned it. Diego was able to combine etheric energy and technology.
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Post by jayne on Sept 29, 2010 0:26:57 GMT
At some point, humans first discovered the forest and they were probably surprised at the magic. The tictocs lived in the forest before the court was created so those first people might have noticed them. It might have been the first people to come to the forest was a random group and Young and company were in that group but its possible Young heard about the tictoc birds and investigated them on his own. I bet Steadman would have been able to shoot one. Once Diego's on board, Young has all he needs to 'become god' Young gathers an army, engineers, whoever is willing to follow him. They go en masse to the forest and propose a partnership... "for as long as they need it and as long as the 'animals' don't become bothersome... "
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